Le groupe français 2016 - 2023 Les Voyageurs

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
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Lianne
Green Belt
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:29 pm
Location: Canada
Languages: Speaks: English (N)
Actively studying: French (low int)
Dabbling in: Italian (beginner), ASL (beginner), Ojibwe (beginner), Swahili (beginner)
Wish list: Swedish, Esperanto, Klingon, Brazilian Portuguese
Has also dabbled in: German, Spanish, toki pona
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... hp?t=12275
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Lianne » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:01 pm

Carmody wrote:DIFFERENT FRENCH ACCENTS w/ French Native Speaker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfQlz_bbpzw

A lot of those sounded exactly the same to me. Apparently I can't differentiate between parts of France at all! I could hear some of the specific details she mentioned, but definitely couldn't tell from someone's accent what part of France they're from. I can, however, usually tell if someone's from France vs. Quebec vs. Manitoba.

Since I've had teachers who spoke France French and speakers who were VERY franco-Manitoban, and I watch things dubbed in both France and Quebec, and the French I hear in person is Manitoban... who knows what my French sounds like?! :lol:
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Carmody
Black Belt - 1st Dan
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:00 am
Location: NYC, NY
Languages: English (N)
French (B1)
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Carmody » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:50 pm

Arnaud » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:35 am

Carmody wrote:
And speaking of accents, could someone please advise me how they would categorize the accent of Aysseline de Lardemelle in this video?

No accent, the speech is a little slow (perhaps on purpose for the target audience)

Many thanks.
I guess I just like slow in any language.
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MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2114
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Location: North Texas USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:13 pm

Carmody wrote:DIFFERENT FRENCH ACCENTS w/ French Native Speaker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfQlz_bbpzw

Pretty sure I've seen this before, but it's good to review these accents. I hear the Italian flavor in the speech of the Corsicans, just as I sometimes hear it in the Spanish of Argentinians. For the other accents, it's all French to me. As for the nasalization, or the lack of it in southern accents, nasalization has been a part of the speech of northern France for a long time, but, surprising to me at any rate, not always. Wikipedia: French nasalization
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Speakeasy » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:58 am

While stumbling about in the InterWeb, I happened upon the announcement, below, from Immigration, Francisation et Intégration Québec, offering free French courses to immigrants, temporary workers, foreign students, et cetera. Heck, they’ll even pay you 185 $CAN per week for attending full-time classes! I would enrol, but my status of “internal immigrant” does not meet the programme’s selection criteria (to be fair, all Canadians living in the ROC (Reste du Canada) receive years of French language training through the public and private school systems). Come on down! You might even develop a taste for “poutine”!

Immigration, Francisation et Intégration Québec
http://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/french-language/index.html?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Cours%20de%20Fran%C3%A7ais%20-%20Anglais%202019&utm_term=learn%20french%20online&utm_content=Apprendre%20le%20Fran%C3%A7ais-%20EN
Immingration, Francisation et Intégration Québec.JPG


Poutine
POUTINE.JPG
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Lianne
Green Belt
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:29 pm
Location: Canada
Languages: Speaks: English (N)
Actively studying: French (low int)
Dabbling in: Italian (beginner), ASL (beginner), Ojibwe (beginner), Swahili (beginner)
Wish list: Swedish, Esperanto, Klingon, Brazilian Portuguese
Has also dabbled in: German, Spanish, toki pona
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... hp?t=12275
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Lianne » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:12 pm

Speakeasy wrote:(to be fair, all Canadians living in the ROC (Reste du Canada) receive years of French language training through the public and private school systems)

That is a VERY generous description of anglo-Canadians' French education. :lol:
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Speakeasy » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:37 pm

Lianne wrote:
Speakeasy wrote:(to be fair, all Canadians living in the ROC (Reste du Canada) receive years of French language training through the public and private school systems)
That is a VERY generous description of anglo-Canadians' French education. :lol:
Lianne, I detect a note of sarcasm, would you care to elaborate?

The State of French Second Language Education in Canada: Final Report, Year 2017
https://cpf.ca/en/files/State-of-FSL-Education-Report-Final-Web.pdf
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Lianne
Green Belt
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:29 pm
Location: Canada
Languages: Speaks: English (N)
Actively studying: French (low int)
Dabbling in: Italian (beginner), ASL (beginner), Ojibwe (beginner), Swahili (beginner)
Wish list: Swedish, Esperanto, Klingon, Brazilian Portuguese
Has also dabbled in: German, Spanish, toki pona
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... hp?t=12275
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Contact:

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Lianne » Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:10 pm

Speakeasy wrote:
Lianne wrote:
Speakeasy wrote:(to be fair, all Canadians living in the ROC (Reste du Canada) receive years of French language training through the public and private school systems)
That is a VERY generous description of anglo-Canadians' French education. :lol:
Lianne, I detect a note of sarcasm, would you care to elaborate?

The State of French Second Language Education in Canada: Final Report, Year 2017
https://cpf.ca/en/files/State-of-FSL-Education-Report-Final-Web.pdf

I wouldn't say it was sarcasm. French education in anglo-Canadian schools is notoriously awful. So I thought that describing it as "years of French language training" was generous because it makes it sound so much better than it is.

In reality I took French class from I think grade 3 (I don't remember exactly) until grade 8, and still couldn't string together a few sentences in French. I learned to conjugate avoir, être, faire, and manger, only in the present tense, and learned to count and name school supplies. It's embarrassing how little French is taught in those French classes.

I work in a school now, and I do think perhaps it's getting better. But, it's still taught by people who don't speak French.
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: 3 / 100 French SC (Books)
: 7 / 100 French SC (Films)
: 0 / 50 Italian Half SC (Books)
: 0 / 50 Italian Half SC (Films)

Pronouns: they/them

Speakeasy
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Speakeasy » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:03 pm

Speakeasy wrote:…(to be fair, all Canadians living in the ROC (Reste du Canada) receive years of French language training through the public and private school systems)
Lianne wrote: That is a VERY generous description of anglo-Canadians' French education. :lol:
Lianne wrote: ... French education in anglo-Canadian schools is notoriously awful. So I thought that describing it as "years of French language training" was generous because it makes it sound so much better than it is.
My assertion was an accurate statement of FACT: the vast majority of non-francophone Canadians, living outside of the Province of Quebec, receive instruction in French as a second language beginning in the fourth grade and ending in the twelfth grade. Unless I am mistaken, the average person would qualify nine years of language instruction as “years" of French language training; to dispute this FACT is disingenuous.
Lianne wrote: French education in anglo-Canadian schools is notoriously awful… In reality I took French class from I think grade 3 (I don't remember exactly) until grade 8, and still couldn't string together a few sentences in French. I learned to conjugate avoir, être, faire, and manger, only in the present tense, and learned to count and name school supplies. It's embarrassing how little French is taught in those French classes. I work in a school now, and I do think perhaps it's getting better. But, it's still taught by people who don't speak French.
You are confusing quantity with quality and, while I might tend to agree with you on the matter of quality, I am not convinced that either one of is is sufficiently well informed on the subject to offer anything but a personal opinion ("notoriously" suggests wide-spread agreement). Furthermore, your personal experiences -- which you seem to believe are a sound basis for making generalizations about a nation-wide educational system -- are deeply at odds with the findings of a national organisation of professionals and parents who evaluate French second language teaching across Canada on an annual basis.

The State of French Second Language Education in Canada: Final Report, Year 2017
https://cpf.ca/en/files/State-of-FSL-Education-Report-Final-Web.pdf[/quote]

Nevertheless, the “anecdotal evidence” of the effectiveness of second language instruction – throughout North America – is that the actual results achieved, in terms of, practical, functional communication skills, fall short of many people’s expectations.

As to the “effectiveness” of the “years” of French language instruction to which ROC students are subjected, my personal impression is that, despite the truly massive and incredibly expensive efforts deployed, most students would be unable to partake in a conversation in French with their Francophone counterparts. Regrettably, the same could be said of ROC high school graduates’ first language literacy, skill in mathematics or the hard sciences, as well as their general knowledge of the world history or current events.

Without (quite seriously) wishing to turn this into a political discussion, I would say that a “cultural bias” might partially explain the less-than-sterling results of French as a Second Language instruction across Canada. I am confident that you, as a fellow Canadian, would recognize that the “politics of language” and Québec-ROC relations are never very far from the surface. These cultural biases are real, they are passed from generation-to-generation, and they are highly resistant to efforts to educate the holders of a deep set reluctance to learn French as doing so is seen as an unreasonable concession to our “other half” in our shared Two Solitudes. In other words, it is quite possible that many ROC students DO NOT WANT to learn French, that they view this part of their education as a particularly onerous imposition which offers them no genuine value, that it is supported by nothing more than a political justification which they view as unsustainable, and these attitudes effect ROC students’ acceptance of what-might-be good language instruction. It is quite possible that, should the Canadian Education System offer second language instruction in a more “fashionable” and “politically correct” language, the results would be better. But, then again, discussing this further would get us both into deep trouble with the moderators!

Finally, my comment "to be fair ... years of French" was an expression of my understanding why ROC "internal immigrants" to Quebec should not qualify for the province's generous efforts at providing language instruction to external immigrants, students, et cetera.

EDITED:
Formatting, tinkering.
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Lianne
Green Belt
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:29 pm
Location: Canada
Languages: Speaks: English (N)
Actively studying: French (low int)
Dabbling in: Italian (beginner), ASL (beginner), Ojibwe (beginner), Swahili (beginner)
Wish list: Swedish, Esperanto, Klingon, Brazilian Portuguese
Has also dabbled in: German, Spanish, toki pona
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... hp?t=12275
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Contact:

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Lianne » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:56 pm

Speakeasy wrote:
Speakeasy wrote:…(to be fair, all Canadians living in the ROC (Reste du Canada) receive years of French language training through the public and private school systems)
Lianne wrote: That is a VERY generous description of anglo-Canadians' French education. :lol:
Lianne wrote: ... French education in anglo-Canadian schools is notoriously awful. So I thought that describing it as "years of French language training" was generous because it makes it sound so much better than it is.
My assertion was an accurate statement of FACT: the vast majority of non-francophone Canadians, living outside of the Province of Quebec, receive instruction in French as a second language beginning in the fourth grade and ending in the twelfth grade. Unless I am mistaken, the average person would qualify nine years of language instruction as “years" of French language training; to dispute this FACT is disingenuous.
Lianne wrote: French education in anglo-Canadian schools is notoriously awful… In reality I took French class from I think grade 3 (I don't remember exactly) until grade 8, and still couldn't string together a few sentences in French. I learned to conjugate avoir, être, faire, and manger, only in the present tense, and learned to count and name school supplies. It's embarrassing how little French is taught in those French classes. I work in a school now, and I do think perhaps it's getting better. But, it's still taught by people who don't speak French.
You are confusing quantity with quality and, while I might tend to agree with you on the matter of quality, I am not convinced that either one of is is sufficiently well informed on the subject to offer anything but a personal opinion ("notoriously" suggests wide-spread agreement). Furthermore, your personal experiences -- which you seem to believe are a sound basis for making generalizations about a nation-wide educational system -- are deeply at odds with the findings of a national organisation of professionals and parents who evaluate French second language teaching across Canada on an annual basis.

The State of French Second Language Education in Canada: Final Report, Year 2017
https://cpf.ca/en/files/State-of-FSL-Education-Report-Final-Web.pdf

Nevertheless, the “anecdotal evidence” of the effectiveness of second language instruction – throughout North America – is that the actual results achieved, in terms of, practical, functional communication skills, fall short of many people’s expectations.

As to the “effectiveness” of the “years” of French language instruction to which ROC students are subjected, my personal impression is that, despite the truly massive and incredibly expensive efforts deployed, most students would be unable to partake in a conversation in French with their Francophone counterparts. Regrettably, the same could be said of ROC high school graduates’ first language literacy, skill in mathematics or the hard sciences, as well as their general knowledge of the world history or current events.

Finally, my comment "to be fair ... years of French" was an expression of my understanding why ROC "internal immigrants" to Quebec should not qualify for the province's generous efforts at providing language instruction to external immigrants, students, et cetera.

EDITED:
Formatting, tinkering.

You took my off-hand joke about Canada's crappy French education way more seriously than I anticipated.

I didn't confuse quantity with quality; I was specifically joking about the quality. What's embarrassing about it is that there's so much quantity (in years, at least), and so little quality.

I don't know why you're arguing so hard while seemingly mostly agreeing with me, nor do I know why you're throwing in insults at anglo-Canada's English, math, science, and history skills, without sources to even back up those points. But whatever...
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: 7 / 100 French SC (Films)
: 0 / 50 Italian Half SC (Books)
: 0 / 50 Italian Half SC (Films)

Pronouns: they/them

Speakeasy
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Speakeasy » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:21 pm

Lianne, your intervention, in reply to a rather innocuous post, is difficult to understand. What were you trying to achieve? When you qualify something as "notoriously awful" and then, in a subsequent post, refer to this an "off-handed joke" only to qualify French language instruction as "crappy", I believe that I am allowed to take you a your word; that is, you hold Canadian instruction of French as a Second Language in extremely low regard. Perhaps you could strengthen your argument by providing a little proof?

My position is that it is quite possible that any perceived problems with Canadian instruction of French as a Second Language are not isolated to our nation's educational system. That is, second language instruction throughout North America is widely perceived as being ineffective and in need of a complete overhaul. There have been numerous discussions on this forum wherein many members express such concerns.

Finally, my comments concerning the discouraging results of ROC high school students' measurable skills in other subjects were a sincere expression of dissatisfaction with observable results. In my opinion, the problem of "poor education" is wide-spread: the system has been producing barely-literate and only nominally-informed citizens for decades, instruction in French as a second language is but one example.
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