Le groupe français 2016 - 2023 Les Voyageurs

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Xenops
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby Xenops » Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:11 am

schlaraffenland wrote:How do you prefer to learn and drill verbs?

I'm reasonably certain that I've come back up to the level of French comprehension that I had when I left school. Like, I wouldn't freak out if I saw "que vous eussiez convaincu" in the wild. But my ability to replicate such forms in writing and speaking is still not quite up to par. Especially when it comes to writing, I am apt to make small mistakes when the orthography changes to preserve pronunciation, since I am still pulling these once-learned things out of the depths of my memory.

I'm not averse to doing what could be considered rather mind-numbing drills, like copying out a page per day from 501 French Verbs by hand. But I wonder if that is indeed the most effective use of one's time. I lean a little more toward writing than toward typing for practice, as I simply enjoy writing by hand more, and I feel I don't remember as well what I type. And, it's a long story, but accents can be slightly more complicated for me to type: Linux, and a non-standard keyboard...

Is there anything cool out there I should know about? How do you practice? Do you repeat things out loud, or write out verb forms until your hand drops off?


If you're into creative writing at all, this is what I did with Spanish, and I plan on doing for French: write in Spanglish/Frenglish. The words you're learning, you plug in: the words you don't know, you look up later. I did use a notebook and pen/pencil when I did this.
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DaveBee
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby DaveBee » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:59 am

I've started leafing thru a picture dictionary at odd moments. I bought one some time back, but I've taken it off the shelf since reading Mr Mollenberg mention he spent 10 minutes at the beginning of a study session reading his.

Anyway, two words that I've come across today and enjoyed are:
midwife - la sage-femme
dormer window - le chien assis (sitting dog? dog seat?) :-)
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:48 am

DaveBee wrote:I've started leafing thru a picture dictionary at odd moments. I bought one some time back, but I've taken it off the shelf since reading Mr Mollenberg mention he spent 10 minutes at the beginning of a study session reading his.

Anyway, two words that I've come across today and enjoyed are:
midwife - la sage-femme
dormer window - le chien assis (sitting dog? dog seat?) :-)


I have lucarne listed in my French-English dictionaries as the translation for dormer window, which btw, I had no clue of what it meant. I had to look this up in English to know what the hell a 'dormer window' was. Show's how much of a sheltered lifestyle I live ;)

As for picture dictionaries... the one you have provided a link for states it contains over 10,000 illustrated terms. Mine is an older version with only over 6000 words and phrases. Perhaps i'll move on up to yours once I get through this older edition. Still, I've had my eye on this one, but can't get it posted to Australia, nor can I find it on amazon (link in Dutch) https://webwinkel.vandale.nl/jean-claud ... oordenboek Van Dale, the Dutch company that make these dictionaries make some pretty nice books and dictionaries. In fact, I own one picture dictionary of theirs from memory with around 15,000 words (Dutch-English), but the thing I like about the one I've provided the link for, is not only does it contain over 22,500 words, but it's a FIVE language picture/visual dictionary containing every word in Dutch, English, French, Spanish and German. Arguably my favourite 5 languages! (edit: my favourite 4 languages plus my boring native language for cross reference purposes)... now how to get it posted here ! :x
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby DaveBee » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:12 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:As for picture dictionaries... the one you have provided a link for states it contains over 10,000 illustrated terms. Mine is an older version with only over 6000 words and phrases. Perhaps i'll move on up to yours once I get through this older edition. Still, I've had my eye on this one, but can't get it posted to Australia, nor can I find it on amazon (link in Dutch) https://webwinkel.vandale.nl/jean-claud ... oordenboek Van Dale, the Dutch company that make these dictionaries make some pretty nice books and dictionaries. In fact, I own one picture dictionary of theirs from memory with around 15,000 words (Dutch-English), but the thing I like about the one I've provided the link for, is not only does it contain over 22,500 words, but it's a FIVE language picture/visual dictionary containing every word in Dutch, English, French, Spanish and German. Arguably my favourite 5 languages! (edit: my favourite 4 languages plus my boring native language for cross reference purposes)... now how to get it posted here ! :x
1. I have the 2015 DK dictionary and it says 6,000 words and phrases too. I'm not sure that the 10,000 illustrated terms advertised in the marketing blurb of the new 2017 edition will survive into the small print on the back cover. :-)

2. If I use the ISBN number of the dutch dictionary you link to, it turns up on Amazon UK. Using "Van Dale groot beeldwoordenboek" turns up a few more options on Amazon, and one on Abebooks UK.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:55 pm

DaveBee wrote:If I use the ISBN number of the dutch dictionary you link to, it turns up on Amazon UK. Using "Van Dale groot beeldwoordenboek" turns up a few more options on Amazon, and one on Abebooks UK.


Dammit, you really shouldn't have told me that! :lol:
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby aravinda » Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:06 pm

Though I own a few picture/visual dictionaries, I rarely use them. I have not found them particularly useful for languages like French. When I use them it is basically to find the word for a certain item and not as an aid to build my vocabulary. Last time I used a visual dictionary was to find the English word for "that thing in the bottom of a sink/wash basin to ..." (strainer!). On the other hand, they are more useful with languages that are less "transparent" to me such as Russian.
PeterMollenburg wrote: Still, I've had my eye on this one, but can't get it posted to Australia, nor can I find it on amazon (link in Dutch) https://webwinkel.vandale.nl/jean-claud ... oordenboek Van Dale, the Dutch company that make these dictionaries make some pretty nice books and dictionaries. In fact, I own one picture dictionary of theirs from memory with around 15,000 words (Dutch-English), but the thing I like about the one I've provided the link for, is not only does it contain over 22,500 words, but it's a FIVE language picture/visual dictionary containing every word in Dutch, English, French, Spanish and German. Arguably my favourite 5 languages! (edit: my favourite 4 languages plus my boring native language for cross reference purposes)... now how to get it posted here ! :x


The lowest total price for the picture dictionary you want seems to be from Amazon.de:

https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?auth ... t=sr&ac=qr

Here's another one I have once considered buying:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/2764410700/re ... WOYLI4PPLX

It has 25000 entries in five languages but Dutch is not one of them!

I have this pictorial dictionary which has 28,000 words but the pictures are black and white line drawings:

https://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Duden-Pic ... dictionary

This is out of print but you can easily get a good used copy. There are two formats (Flexi cover and paperback).

By the way, Australia is not a good place to get books online. For example, PriceMinister (which is a good source of low priced used French books) does not ship to Australia. Others do ship but the shipping cost is very high :( Today I bought some items from Thrift Books through eBay: shipping cost is more than three times the value of the books :cry: )
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby DaveBee » Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:09 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:
DaveBee wrote:If I use the ISBN number of the dutch dictionary you link to, it turns up on Amazon UK. Using "Van Dale groot beeldwoordenboek" turns up a few more options on Amazon, and one on Abebooks UK.


Dammit, you really shouldn't have told me that! :lol:
Steady Mollenberg. Cast aside all thought of frivolous expense, and rededicate yourself to goal-directed effort.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_officiis
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:37 pm

aravinda wrote:Though I own a few picture/visual dictionaries, I rarely use them. I have not found them particularly useful for languages like French. When I use them it is basically to find the word for a certain item and not as an aid to build my vocabulary. Last time I used a visual dictionary was to find the English word for "that thing in the bottom of a sink/wash basin to ..." (strainer!). On the other hand, they are more useful with languages that are less "transparent" to me such as Russian.
PeterMollenburg wrote: Still, I've had my eye on this one, but can't get it posted to Australia, nor can I find it on amazon (link in Dutch) https://webwinkel.vandale.nl/jean-claud ... oordenboek Van Dale, the Dutch company that make these dictionaries make some pretty nice books and dictionaries. In fact, I own one picture dictionary of theirs from memory with around 15,000 words (Dutch-English), but the thing I like about the one I've provided the link for, is not only does it contain over 22,500 words, but it's a FIVE language picture/visual dictionary containing every word in Dutch, English, French, Spanish and German. Arguably my favourite 5 languages! (edit: my favourite 4 languages plus my boring native language for cross reference purposes)... now how to get it posted here ! :x


The lowest total price for the picture dictionary you want seems to be from Amazon.de:

https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?auth ... t=sr&ac=qr

Here's another one I have once considered buying:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/2764410700/re ... WOYLI4PPLX

It has 25000 entries in five languages but Dutch is not one of them!

I have this pictorial dictionary which has 28,000 words but the pictures are black and white line drawings:

https://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Duden-Pic ... dictionary

This is out of print but you can easily get a good used copy. There are two formats (Flexi cover and paperback).

By the way, Australia is not a good place to get books online. For example, PriceMinister (which is a good source of low priced used French books) does not ship to Australia. Others do ship but the shipping cost is very high :( Today I bought some items from Thrift Books through eBay: shipping cost is more than three times the value of the books :cry: )


Yes, that 5 language dictionary with Italian in place of Dutch caught my eye a week or two back, but in the end Italian is not currently on my radar, although once upon a time I was never interested in it, yet these days it's curiously growing on me. It makes sense that Dutch is present with the Van Dale dictionary, otherwise it's not one of the big European languages, so one would expect Italian to take the place of Dutch for multi-lingual dictionaries made outside of the Netherlands, generally speaking.

Yeah postage prices to this country from other countries are insanely high. Thanks for the German Amazon link!
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby tomgosse » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:35 pm

Joyeux La Fête National du Québec! Écoutez de la musique québécoise toute la journée à la Radio Yé Yé.
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schlaraffenland
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby schlaraffenland » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:44 pm

smallwhite wrote:I didn't use 501 when I was learning French but did use it for Italian. I drilled orally (because that's how fast you need to be able to conjugate in a real-life conversation; writing is too slow) and I drill in all sorts of different orders (see below): ...


Thank you! I'll begin incorporating this. I particularly like your x-y axis approach, so to speak.

Xenops wrote:If you're into creative writing at all, this is what I did with Spanish, and I plan on doing for French: write in Spanglish/Frenglish. The words you're learning, you plug in: the words you don't know, you look up later. I did use a notebook and pen/pencil when I did this.


This is exactly the kind of thing I'd enjoy doing. Thanks! I really do need to begin incorporating writing/written production into my studies. I only wish Lang-8 were still taking new members. Well... if a tree falls in the forest, and nobody was there to hear it, it still makes a sound. :D


LesRonces wrote:Unless you're learning specifically for writing, i wouldn't bother with the more archaic verb forms which are hardly used.

The most used spoken/popular media/social media French verb forms are present, passé composé, imparfait, subjonctif present, conditionnel, futur and futur proche, and imperative commands.

The rest are largely a waste of time drilling and in my opinion should be tackled as and when they come up.

Even with the verb forms you do see often, you will rarely hear the 'nous' form in real life. You'd also be better not concentrating on the 'tu' form unless you have a lot of real life friends who you tutoyer. If you go say, to a bar to speak to a bunch of random people, you will never use 'tu'.


Thank you! This is really helpful, and certainly not something I would've stumbled upon myself. I'd say that my aims are primarily to develop literary/academic competence in reading and writing, with speaking being a necessary evil. Necessary, and not to be neglected, alas. But so it goes.
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