Le groupe français 2016 - 2023 Les Voyageurs

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badger
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby badger » Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:38 am

kanewai wrote:I've started listening to a podcast that Les Voyageurs might enjoy: De Saint-Jacques à Compostelle by Hervé Pauchon.

thanks, this is great. I was just re-reading your Languages and Dialects on the Camino de Santiago thread the other day & looking at the various routes on a map. :)
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Kraut
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Kraut » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:35 pm

https://polyglottes.org/

Notre blog Polyglottes.org existe depuis 2013 et il propose une multitude de ressources autour des langues et particulièrement du FLE. Nous comptons en octobre 2021 plus de 500 articles sur le blog !
Our blog Polyglottes.org exists since 2013 and offers a multitude of resources around languages and particularly EFL. As of October 2021, we have more than 500 articles on the blog!
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DaveAgain
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby DaveAgain » Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:07 pm

YouTube presented me with a Leçons de ténébres video earlier, "lessons of darkness"? I thought? But no! Ténébres here is tenebrae
(in the Roman Catholic Church) matins and lauds for the last three days of Holy Week, at which candles are successively extinguished.

Wikipedia says this is a niche genre of religious music developed in France:
Les leçons de Ténèbres sont un genre musical liturgique créé en France au XVIIe siècle et destiné au premier des trois nocturnes qui accompagnent chaque office des Ténèbres (matines des jeudi, vendredi et samedi saints). Ce genre ne survit pas à la musique baroque, disparaissant dans la première moitié du XVIIIe siècle, mais il fournit un thème lyrique souvent évoqué en littérature jusqu'à l'époque contemporaine.

France musique have a set of 3 concerts on their website, Le cycle des Leçons de Ténèbres
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Le Baron » Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:50 pm

Amusing video about monocle-wearing. I like how it was associated with villains and he references Penguin from Batman. :lol:

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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby DaveAgain » Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:12 pm

I've just come accross a construction that confused me:
... deux jours avant que von Manstein ne partît pour rejoindre son commandement ...

[quote from Comment perdre une bataille, Ch.7, p.135]

I couldn't understand the purpose of "ne", and it seems to have none.

wordreference.com offer
avant que + (ne) + [subjonctive] > before + indicatif

and deepl.com translate it as:
two days before von Manstein left to join his command
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Dragon27 » Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:19 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_gr ... pletive_ne
In certain cases in formal French, the word ne can be used without signifying negation; the ne in such instances is known as expletive ne (French: ne explétif):

« J'ai peur que cela ne se reproduise. » — "I am afraid that it might happen again."
« Il est arrivé avant que nous n'ayons commencé. » — "He arrived before we started."
« Ils sont plus nombreux que tu ne le crois. » — "There are more of them than you think."

Expletive ne is found in finite subordinate clauses (never before an infinitive). It is characteristic of literary rather than colloquial style. In other registers French tends to not use any negation at all in such clauses, e.g., J'ai peur que cela se reproduise.

The following contexts allow expletive ne

• the complement clause of verbs expressing fear or avoidance: craindre (to fear), avoir peur (to be afraid), empêcher (to prevent), éviter (to avoid)
• the complement clause of verbs expressing doubt or denial: douter (to doubt), nier (to deny)
• adverbial clauses introduced by the following expressions: avant que (before), à moins que (unless), de peur/crainte que (for fear that)
• comparative constructions expressing inequality: autre (other), meilleur (better), plus fort (stronger), moins intelligent (less intelligent), etc.


Can you provide the entire sentence and, maybe, some sentences before that to better understand the context?
Last edited by Dragon27 on Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Iversen » Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:23 pm

It's called "ne explétif", and maybe it reflects something in the semantic deep strata, but it's confusing and superfluous - maybe that's why some authors still use it..

Notice that the author also uses the rare verbal form "partît", which belongs to the same lofty and slightly archaic register.
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Le Baron » Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:25 pm

I didn't know the name supplied above, I don't care for remembering grammar terms. It is indeed an awkward point of grammar though, which can be avoided by rewording in a simpler, clearer way, though not always.

It has the tendency to cause confusion with sentences like:

'j'ai peur qu'il ne sache...' which could be mistaken for 'j'ai peur qu'il ne sache pas..'

The ne in the first example, as Dragon27's post indicates, points to an apprehensive contingency rather than a negation and in a subordinate clause beginning with something-que. Though not 'après de...' avant de' and not if negation is already somewhere indicated.

The missing completion of a negative (pas, plus, jamais...etc) is a good clue for seeing that it isn't ordinary negation. In writing at any rate. It would be harder to spot in speech, but as Iversen says it's archaic and a bit literary.

edit: 'can' be avoided (not 'can't').
Last edited by Le Baron on Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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DaveAgain
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby DaveAgain » Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:39 pm

Dragon27 wrote:Can you provide the entire sentence and, maybe, some sentences before that to better understand the context?
It's the first sentence in a new section.
Hitler accepte le plan Manstein.

Le 7 février, deux jours avant que von Manstein ne partît pour rejoindre son commandement, le Groupe A effectua son premier exercice sur la carte. Halder en fut impressioné et, pour la première fois, se montra enclin à accepter la nouvelle idée.
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Dragon27
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Dragon27 » Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:13 pm

Well, it doesn't seem to me that ne in this case implies any kind of 'appréhension' (although I might be wrong), so we just have to accept this literary construction as it is.
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