Le groupe français 2016 - 2023 Les Voyageurs

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Speakeasy
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby Speakeasy » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:24 pm

LesRonces wrote: Find it interesting that being friendly to people you have just met can be considered a poor trait !
My understanding of Mattieu Bock-Côté's article is that he is (as he has so often done in the past), deploring what-he-perceives-to-be another example of an unnecessary and unjustifiable impoverishment of the French language as spoken by many his Francophone compatriots. He is not opposed to establishing "amicable" relationships with strangers, with service personal in restaurants and cafés, with teachers, with colleagues, or with anyone else with whom one has not yet developed a sound and mutual "intimate" relationship. He is opposed to the "false intimacy" and "disrespect" that the virtually automatic "tutoiement" (amongst many Québécers) implies. As an ardent defender of the French language, Mattieu Bock-Côté is making -- yet another -- appeal to his fellow citizens to "up their game" when expressing themselves in the language of their shared linguistic heritage.

Addendum: I just took a look at the "Readers' Comments" that are appended to the bottom of the article. In reaction, I closed my eyes, raised my open hand to my forehead, and shook my head in despair.

EDITED: Addendum
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tastyonions
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby tastyonions » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:17 pm

On n'a pas d'équivalent exacte de la différence "tu-vous" en anglais mais j'ai remarqué une tendance aux Etats-Unis qui relève du même genre d'effacement d'hiérarchie et distinction sociale, à savoir les enfants (de plus en plus nombreux) qui s'adressent à leurs parents, les amis de leur parents et les parents de leurs amis en utilisant leurs prénoms, ce qui aurait fait assez "hippie" voire irrespectueux il y a quinze ou vingt ans.
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby Speakeasy » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:34 pm

tastyonions wrote: ... j'ai remarqué une tendance aux Etats-Unis qui relève du même genre d'effacement d'hiérarchie et distinction sociale, à savoir les enfants (de plus en plus nombreux) qui s'adressent à leurs parents, les amis de leur parents et les parents de leurs amis en utilisant leurs prénoms, ce qui aurait fait assez "hippie" voire irrespectueux il y a quinze ou vingt ans.
Oui, cela se fait au Québec depuis quelques décennies déjà. Les enfants sont encouragés à tutoyer leurs professeurs d’école et à les adresser par leurs prénoms. Mais je résiste! Lorsque les enfants de mes voisins m’adressent par mon prénom, je leur rappelle (en présence de leurs parents) que je m’appelle « monsieur » un tel, ce qui semble étonner voire choquer mes voisins … et je m’en crisse de leurs réactions, ces mal-élevés!
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby tomgosse » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:49 pm

tastyonions wrote:On n'a pas d'équivalent exacte de la différence "tu-vous" en anglais mais j'ai remarqué une tendance aux Etats-Unis qui relève du même genre d'effacement d'hiérarchie et distinction sociale, à savoir les enfants (de plus en plus nombreux) qui s'adressent à leurs parents, les amis de leur parents et les parents de leurs amis en utilisant leurs prénoms, ce qui aurait fait assez "hippie" voire irrespectueux il y a quinze ou vingt ans.

Je sais que de nombreux adultes, qui après avoir été adressés en tant que M. Jones, diront: « Ne m'appelez pas M. Jones, appelez-moi Fred ».

It's part of the American "first-name basis, we are all one big happy family, gee-shucks, I'm just ordinary folks" culture. Once I worked in a retail store when it was decided that we should wear name tags. My boss gave me a name tag and a marker pen and told me to write my name on it. I wrote, "Mr. Gosse". They weren't happy when I told them that was how I wanted to be addressed. Especially by children. :o
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Ogrim
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby Ogrim » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:34 am

Speakeasy wrote:I had a few errands to run this morning (des courses à faire) and, while enjoying a brief pause-café, flipped through "Le Journal de Montréal", a free copy of which can be found in practically every restaurant, café, salon de coiffeur, et cetera located in Québec. While I do not always share the political views and societal opinions of the chroniqueur, Mattieu Bock-Côté, I stand amongst those who recognize his impressive intellect. In any event, I found this morning's article so interesting that I tracked it down on the newspaper's website and have posted the LINK below for your edification and enjoyment:

Le Journal de Montréal
Mattieu Bock-Côté
Vive le vouvoiement !

http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2017/06/29/vive-le-vouvoiement


Thank you for sharing the article, very interesting. I have never been to Québec and don't know very much about the culture there, but from reading this I get the impression it is less "French" than I thought. I really should expand my horizon a bit more across the Atlantic.

tomgosse wrote:It's part of the American "first-name basis, we are all one big happy family, gee-shucks, I'm just ordinary folks" culture. Once I worked in a retail store when it was decided that we should wear name tags. My boss gave me a name tag and a marker pen and told me to write my name on it. I wrote, "Mr. Gosse". They weren't happy when I told them that was how I wanted to be addressed. Especially by children. :o


That culture as you describe it is becoming more and more common in Europe as well. I really can't take it when marketing and sales people I've never met before send me e-mails or make phone calls addressing me with my first name (which most of the time they don't know how to pronounce correctly). It is very common in the UK and in Nordic countires, and I see more and more of it in other European countries, like Spain. Here in France they are still more formal - you will never hear a waiter saying "tu" to a customer, unless they are old friends - , but the tendency is there.
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby blaurebell » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:51 am

Ogrim wrote:That culture as you describe it is becoming more and more common in Europe as well. I really can't take it when marketing and sales people I've never met before send me e-mails or make phone calls addressing me with my first name (which most of the time they don't know how to pronounce correctly). It is very common in the UK and in Nordic countires, and I see more and more of it in other European countries, like Spain. Here in France they are still more formal - you will never hear a waiter saying "tu" to a customer, unless they are old friends - , but the tendency is there.


When IKEA started to write informal signs in their German shops I actually left a customer note saying that I would prefer not to be addressed informally by a chair :lol: Alas, they didn't listen to my complaint and I still find visits to IKEA somewhat disturbing. It has become more and more normal to address people informally in Germany in general. I think I haven't said Sie to anyone apart from government employees or doctors in 10 years. French movies tend to totally confuse me with their formal / informal usage. Sometimes you see folks in bed together still using vous. I mean, if that isn't a reason to become informal, what on earth is?!
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MamaPata
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby MamaPata » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:25 am

Ogrim wrote:
That culture as you describe it is becoming more and more common in Europe as well. I really can't take it when marketing and sales people I've never met before send me e-mails or make phone calls addressing me with my first name (which most of the time they don't know how to pronounce correctly). It is very common in the UK and in Nordic countires, and I see more and more of it in other European countries, like Spain. Here in France they are still more formal - you will never hear a waiter saying "tu" to a customer, unless they are old friends - , but the tendency is there.


At least in my case, I sometimes write to people using their first name (although often with the surname) because I'm not clear of their gender from their name. Because my name ends in a consonant, I get a lot of people addressing me as 'Mr' (particularly in Russia) and that annoys me a lot more than people calling me by my first name!

(I do find the Tu/Vous distinction quite weird though, so I probably err towards informality in many cases)
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schlaraffenland
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby schlaraffenland » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:40 am

blaurebell wrote:
Ogrim wrote:That culture as you describe it is becoming more and more common in Europe as well. I really can't take it when marketing and sales people I've never met before send me e-mails or make phone calls addressing me with my first name (which most of the time they don't know how to pronounce correctly). It is very common in the UK and in Nordic countires, and I see more and more of it in other European countries, like Spain. Here in France they are still more formal - you will never hear a waiter saying "tu" to a customer, unless they are old friends - , but the tendency is there.


When IKEA started to write informal signs in their German shops I actually left a customer note saying that I would prefer not to be addressed informally by a chair :lol: Alas, they didn't listen to my complaint and I still find visits to IKEA somewhat disturbing. It has become more and more normal to address people informally in Germany in general. I think I haven't said Sie to anyone apart from government employees or doctors in 10 years. French movies tend to totally confuse me with their formal / informal usage. Sometimes you see folks in bed together still using vous. I mean, if that isn't a reason to become informal, what on earth is?!


The use of "du" in German advertising and in apps took me aback as well. "Oh, trying to be all buddy-buddy with me now, eh? What cheek!", I would always think. I am still always a little suspicious of any app that starts out with me on the "du" footing. Delete! ;)
Conversely, I wouldn't necessarily be galled if an acquaintance did this, or shopkeepers in some circumstances. I got a piercing while I was living in Munich, and the piercers used "du." Would've felt pretty silly in such an environment if they'd used "Sie." Or "Sie" would've made me feel that our (likely) fifteen-year age difference had been even greater. :lol:
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby Ani » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:20 pm

tastyonions wrote:On n'a pas d'équivalent exacte de la différence "tu-vous" en anglais mais j'ai remarqué une tendance aux Etats-Unis qui relève du même genre d'effacement d'hiérarchie et distinction sociale, à savoir les enfants (de plus en plus nombreux) qui s'adressent à leurs parents, les amis de leur parents et les parents de leurs amis en utilisant leurs prénoms, ce qui aurait fait assez "hippie" voire irrespectueux il y a quinze ou vingt ans.



I think a lot is this comes from the Quakers and their influence in America, which is a lot broader than people realize, also a lot older. I went to a Friends (Quaker) school for high school where you call your teachers by their first names, or even a nick name like "Barb". It's sort hard to go back to the "real world"way of addressing people. You really lose your sense of what is appropriate and what is stuffy.
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2017 Les Voyageurs

Postby Speakeasy » Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:13 pm

Ogrim wrote: Thank you for sharing the article, very interesting. I have never been to Québec and don't know very much about the culture there, but from reading this I get the impression it is less "French" than I thought. I really should expand my horizon a bit more across the Atlantic...
Thank you for your kind thoughts. Nevertheless, I think that it would be useful to correct the misconception that Québec is “less French” that you had previously thought. The vast majority of the inhabitants of the Province of Québec are direct descendants of the former French colonial regime (La Nouvelle France) and they are very attached to their cultural and linguistic roots. French is not only the “official” language in Québec, it is the “actively spoken” language of most of the province’s citizens at school, at work, and in the public and private spheres. While one could “get by” as permanent resident of Québec without having at least a B2 level of French, one would have to restrict one’s movements and activities to a few small linguistic pockets outside of which communications with the citizenry could be quite difficult. That is, outside of these pockets, one would have to rely on the local populace’s level of French-English bilingualism, which is as unpredictable as it is variable. I share Mattieu Bock-Côté’s discouragement over the “cultural norm” of the automatic “tutoiement”, chiefly because this practice implies a degree of intimacy and egalitarianism that do not, in fact, exist whereas the French language provides a direct means for maintaining a certain reserve. However, the author was not making a blanket statement that Québécers are “less French” (or less Francophone) for their automatic tutoiement. For that, please refer to any of his numerous other articles wherein he regularly chides his compatriots for the “quality” of their French.

EDITED:
"false intimacy" corrected to read "a degree of intimacy"
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