Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
DaveAgain
Brown Belt
Posts: 1439
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:26 am
Languages: English (native), French & German (learning).
x 2854

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby DaveAgain » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:37 pm

Dragon27 wrote:
DaveAgain wrote:voir dire - questioning
- My dictionary mentions that 'voir' used to have a meaning of 'true'.

From Latin vērus, which is the root of words like "verify", "veracious" and "verdict". The latter comes from Medieval Latin veredictum (through the intermediate Anglo-Norman/French verdit, Modern English spelling is influenced by Latin), ultimately containing the exact same roots as the expression in question (voir dire). Another familiar descendant of the Latin vērus is the modifier "very".

The homonymic French verb voir, of course, comes from a different Latin word vidēre.
Larousse.fr spell that with a trailing 'e', voire. Would that perhaps be a later spelling change to differentiate the two?
1 x

Dragon27
Blue Belt
Posts: 505
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:40 am
Languages: Russian (N)
English - best foreign language
Polish, Spanish - passive advanced
Tatar, German, French, Greek - studying
x 1073

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Dragon27 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:28 pm

DaveAgain wrote:Larousse.fr spell that with a trailing 'e', voire. Would that perhaps be a later spelling change to differentiate the two?

Well, it's hard to say, orthography in those times wasn't as standardized, I believe, as it is now, although it may not necessarily concern this word (and its spellings). In Middle English it was pretty common to see the same word being spelled a gazillion of ways (even by the same author in the same sentence), and the final "e" (which has become silent early) could easily appear or disappear into thin air. In Old French, however, it may not have been the case, since the final "e" became silent much later in the game (closer to Modern French). So, although, the modern spelling may have been partially influenced by the need to preserve the difference, overall, I believe, it is etymological.

Dictionnaire de l'Ancien Français jusqu'au milieu du XIV siècle by A. J. Greimas provides different spellings that meant different things in Old French, so there was an adjective voir (masculine, feminine form is voire), masculine noun voir (and a feminine noun voire, too) and the adverbs voir and voire which may have meant different things (or used differently; they were certainly pronounced differently). So the modern spelling voire is not a later spelling change, but a preservation of one of the original spellings. "Voir" could also have been spelled as "veir", among other variants. There were also some other homographs, e.g. a masculine noun voire (or verre) meaning "glass", and a masculine noun voir (or ver) meaning "spring" (printemps).
4 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1711
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: The pig pen
Languages: English (N), Fr, NL, De, Eo, Sranantongo (rusty).
Studying: Es, Indo.
x 4412

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Le Baron » Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:42 pm

DaveAgain wrote:Larousse.fr spell that with a trailing 'e', voire. Would that perhaps be a later spelling change to differentiate the two?

That's more to mean 'indeed'.
1 x
Extensive reading - One book a month for 2022: 7 / 12
Duolingo Latin - for relaxation purposes: 19 / 22
Get to know the tree before you eat the fruit! (African proverb)

User avatar
Iversen
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3805
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:36 pm
Location: Denmark
Languages: Monolingual travels in Danish, English, German, Dutch, Swedish, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian and (part time) Esperanto
Ahem, not yet: Norwegian, Afrikaans, Platt, Scots, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Irish, Indonesian and a few more...
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
x 10648

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Iversen » Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:50 pm

As far as I know "voire" nowadays can only mean something like "c'est-à-dire" - and always with the final e. According to my etymological dictionary (Larousse 1971) it comes from Latin "verus" (true) rather than "vedere" > "voir"(to see). It's probably not used much in ordinary speech, but I have a 'foible' for those 'mots rares et précieux', and I could definitely see myself using it - just for fun.
3 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1711
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: The pig pen
Languages: English (N), Fr, NL, De, Eo, Sranantongo (rusty).
Studying: Es, Indo.
x 4412

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Le Baron » Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:14 pm

Iversen wrote:As far as I know "voire" nowadays can only mean something like "c'est-à-dire"

This is why I added 'indeed' or perhaps même is better as a synonym. However I think it generally has a sense of negation, so could be in some contexts: 'if not/if not even' and 'that's not to say/not to mention'. So sans parler de more than just c'est-à-dire. And it's fairly stretched by that point.
0 x
Extensive reading - One book a month for 2022: 7 / 12
Duolingo Latin - for relaxation purposes: 19 / 22
Get to know the tree before you eat the fruit! (African proverb)

DaveAgain
Brown Belt
Posts: 1439
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:26 am
Languages: English (native), French & German (learning).
x 2854

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby DaveAgain » Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:17 pm

New-to-me expression: par la bande > indirectly.

(Bande as used in this expressoin was originally the cushion of a billard table.)

... parce qu'elle a écrit des romans et surtout des autobiographies mais toujours en arrivant par la bande c'est à dire que elle racontait pas sa vie de a à z en allant directement au coeur du sujet mais elle avait l'habitude de prendre toujours des sujets qui pouvait paraître comme ça anodin ou marginaux mais qui en fait en disait long sur sa vie et qui nous permet comme ça en filigrane de voir des secrets à paraître un peu comme si elle nous faisait des confidences

https://youtu.be/n2PV6CTs69g?t=42
3 x

User avatar
MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1736
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: Southern Mississippi USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
x 3699

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:02 am

Perhaps an English equivalent is the basketball expression, "off the glass"?
1 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

User avatar
MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1736
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: Southern Mississippi USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
x 3699

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:50 pm

This is a cross post from PM's log. Peter gives a concise list of recommendations for French resources for beyond the basics. Not an all-inclusive list, but sound and helpful IMHO.

"I never used the more in depth Living Language courses that others have mentioned over the years here and on HTLAL*. I did however use another Living Language series of courses which I was very disappointed with. The learning curve felt ridiculously flat and the courses were just plain ordinary and way too simple even if this course was the first one you ever tried. It was composed of three levels which could be bought separately (Living Language Essential French, Living Language Intermediate French, Living Language Advanced French) or as one big lot of courses together in a kind of box-set. So slow/flat was the learning curve, I feel the three levels could've been condensed into one volume were the unnecessary aspects taken out. The more advanced of the three levels was not at all advanced in my opinion, but I couldn't stomach using the course and only leafed through it (I completed the Essential and Intermediate levels). I didn't pursue finding the much talked about meatier/older Living Language courses as the amount of materials I owned already was insane and quite frankly I didn't need it nor at least half of the other French courses I owned.

*HTLAL:How to learn any language, a predecessor of this forum.

"If you liked FSI like drills and want a similar course or if budget is an issue you could go for the DLI French Basic course. If you want something free but more advanced you could try the Peace Corps Le français basé sur la compétence, of which there are several levels. If you want an all round course with video, audio, a story, grammar and some immersion, go for French in Action. You want to predominantly improve listening through video? I think Yabla is a great platform for this. The Hugo Advanced French and Colloquial French 2 are shorter courses that are at least beyond the basic stages if you're looking for something shorter. If you need advanced content and want something different to FSI I will suggest some other courses listed below:

"Assimil Using French,
"Assimil Business French,
"CLE Grammaire Progressif du français (niveaux avancé et perfectionnement),
"Practise Makes Perfect series
"The second level French linguaphone course (I've never seen this one but heard good things),
"Cours de langue et de civilisation françaises (niveaux III et IV)

"or if you want to go for further structure or target exams you could look at any of the exam preparation exam books, but I think it's probably not the right time for that just yet and it also depends on your goals." [/quote]
0 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson


Return to “Study Groups”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests