French listening and oral production

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Le Baron
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Re: French listening and oral production

Postby Le Baron » Tue May 17, 2022 3:38 pm

BeaP wrote:What I want to emphasise is that how you prepare before going out to the wild is crucial. And a teacher should talk about this. And yes, sometimes people need to learn. (One example I've found is verb forms. Those who don't know the most frequent forms of irregular verbs, won't be able to speak.) But I accept that others feel that it works in a different way, I just wanted to add another point of view.

In what way do we disagree? I read all the above (including the bit I didn't quote) and I agree with all of it. In that video above it seems to me she isn't bypassing or dissuading people from learning and preparing, indeed she is addressing students who have done a lot of that already, but who shy away from active speaking and fall back into the comfort of more learning to avoid looking foolish.

You've been and done the speaking, you've made the effort. Perhaps because you wanted to. This is the crucial step which quite a lot of people don't do, and are preparing for forever. Or at least for long after they could have started using the language. I think her only message in that regard - which may be trite, but true - is that you learn speaking by speaking. Just like you learn reading by reading. Just like you learn listening by listening. That's fair isn't it?
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MorkTheFiddle
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Re: French listening and oral production

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Tue May 17, 2022 6:10 pm

Le Baron wrote:There are other people interviewed who speak French as an L2 (often very well) like Omar Sharif or fluent but less accomplished with pronunciation like Ingrid Bergman. Bergman is so confident that even when she makes mistakes it's charming and no-one cares.
So last night I listened to a few minutes of the interview with Ingrid Bergman. No surprise, I detected no accent or mistakes, but I did understand her, mostly. Deneuve is going to be a big challenge for me. ;)
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Re: French listening and oral production

Postby Le Baron » Tue May 17, 2022 6:52 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:So last night I listened to a few minutes of the interview with Ingrid Bergman. No surprise, I detected no accent or mistakes, but I did understand her, mostly. Deneuve is going to be a big challenge for me. ;)

I just went for a listen to put it fresh in my mind. Did you really hear no accent? She also specifically uses the 'dental' Spanish type 'r'. Which does actually still exist in some parts of France (I heard it in Biarritz), but it's not common for a foreign learner. In general I found her pleasant to listen to.
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Re: French listening and oral production

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Tue May 17, 2022 7:01 pm

Ha, ha. Nope, didn't notice anything. Pretty sorry, I know. But she was as you say pleasant to listen to. I'll have to go back and listen to the whole thing.
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lusan
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Re: French listening and oral production

Postby lusan » Fri May 20, 2022 10:39 pm

BeaP wrote:
I don't think we differ from this aspect. I also think that conversation practice is beneficial. My point was only that for oral production you need a limited amount of active vocabulary and grammar, which in self-study can be attained through intensive work with good dialogues and (I also agree on this) grammar drills, repetition practice. (You're right, sooner or later one needs to use the things learned and put them into practice.)


100 %. I do it for French FSI and I have to developed my own exercises for Italian. A minimum active word set does marvel. I do it even for both English and Spanish then when I speak/write I reduce my voc. I just want to communicate the point and move on... why to use 10 words when I can use 5? I'm ok speaking like a teenager!

BeaP wrote:On the other hand, listening (and reading) requires a huge passive vocabulary, that you won't find in A1-A2 materials. It might be a bit easier for you, because of the similarity between your native language and the ones you're learning, but I think even you needed a lot of time to have a good understanding of French speech. Imagine Carmody, a native English speaker. When you speak with someone, and people recognise that you're not a native speaker, they usually speak slower, don't use very rare or academic vocabulary. You can ask for clarification, ask the other to rephrase a sentence, define the meaning of a word. And there's no problem with that, the main goal is effective communication. However, when you listen to videos, speeches, a theatre performance or anything, you can't say that you have a problem, and most of the time (IRL) you can't even jump back 5-10 seconds and listen to things again. That's why I think listening is the hardest skill to master.


Indeed. Reading helps up to a point, but I believe that for French the focus must be on listening... Questo non e lo stesso for Italian.... Sorry, another language coming on line... jaja ja... I mean, the fact that French drop so many ending sounds and have their liaisons makes the job a little more difficult/diverso.

BeaP wrote:Good news for you and me if I'm right: we're already done with the time-consuming part, and can achieve a high level in speaking relatively quickly if we work hard.


Ja ja... I just enjoy foreign languages. They really enrich my life.

BeaP wrote: There's a very interesting idea that I've heard from different sources: some say that reading is the key skill. This would mean that fluent and accurate speaking can be attained through reading an insane amount. I feel it's mostly true for my native language, those who have read a lot are usually good speakers, but I don't know if it's true for a foreign language. Any ideas?


I am not sure about it. I read a lot for both French and Polish...and of course, the same for Spanish and English...(I am a little old with very good education. I have read 1000's of books in my life).... and look how I write...like someone who doesn't care much but to be understood... I just love reading and listening... that is more than enough for me.

I suppose that to be a good speaker one needs to speak a lot and speak well...which requires dedication and hard work... me? at my age? I don't care much. The benefit of an extensive active vocabulary is very marginal without a professional foreign life. So... I am ok with a B1+ speaking skill for French and Italian. I can't say the same for Spanish/English after 40+ years in USA.
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MorkTheFiddle
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Re: French listening and oral production

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Thu May 26, 2022 6:38 pm

To return for a bit to the Bergman interview, I listened to a bit more this afternoon, and I did detect an anomaly or two in her accent. At one point (9:16) she says "je suis allée" and the 's' of her 'suis' sounded as 'ss' not as 'z.' A bit later she seems to muss up the 's' of 'télévision.' Not sure about that one. Shortly thereafter I stopped. I never found Bergman to be all that interesting as a person, and when they got to the 'scandal' about her divorce, I yawned and turned it off. :) The fact that she was also a theatrical actor surprised me, in a good way.
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lingohot
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Re: French listening and oral production

Postby lingohot » Tue May 31, 2022 8:34 pm

Hey, do you understand what he says? I understand et je forme ensuite les dirigeants et les salariés d'entreprise à :?: les différentes procédures quo'on a pu mettre en place ensemble.
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guyome
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Re: French listening and oral production

Postby guyome » Tue May 31, 2022 8:54 pm

What I hear: et je forme ensuite les dirigeants et les salariés d'l'entreprise à appliquer les différentes procédures qu'on a pu mettre en place ensemble.
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lingohot
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Re: French listening and oral production

Postby lingohot » Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:54 am

guyome wrote:What I hear: et je forme ensuite les dirigeants et les salariés d'l'entreprise à appliquer les différentes procédures qu'on a pu mettre en place ensemble.


Thanks, Guyome. That was the verb that I would have expected as well, but I just couldn't hear "appliquer" no matter how often I listened to it. I only hear "plier", "applier" or something like that. Same goes for "d'l'entreprise", I thought it actually should be "de l'", I couldn't hear the "l" sound.
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Le Baron
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Re: French listening and oral production

Postby Le Baron » Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:06 pm

Here's a French listening exercise (with no subs) where the delightful pianist talks clearly through the details of playing Debussy's Arabesque No.1. You get to rest when she plays and also get the pleasure of listening to the limpid beauty of the music. (I've been learning to play the piece and it's much trickier than I thought).

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