Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

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Le Baron
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Le Baron » Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:22 pm

Dragon27 wrote:Well, it doesn't seem to me that ne in this case implies any kind of 'appréhension' (although I might be wrong), so we just have to accept this literary construction as it is.


It is specifically used with constructions that start (in English) with 'I fear that', I'm worried that'. These are apprehension or better 'concern'. The example I gave is precisely that.
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Dragon27 » Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:40 pm

Le Baron wrote:It is specifically used with constructions that start (in English) with 'I fear that', I'm worried that'. These are apprehension or better 'concern'. The example I gave is precisely that.

Does the sentence in the book imply apprehension? Cause it doesn't really seem like it to me (unless Manstein was concerned about conducting the military exercise to test his plan before he departed).
I was just trying to see if the shade of meaning that is described on the wiki page can be found in this case:
Si les locutions « de peur que », « de crainte que » suivent logiquement ce principe, il est aujourd’hui recommandé par les manuels de bon usage, de ne pas l’utiliser dans certaines subordonnées telles celles construites avec « avant que ». Si la plupart du temps, on a raison de suivre cette recommandation, on peut obéir tout aussi bien dans les cas qui le demandent au « réflexe d’appréhension » qui ne vient d'ailleurs pas alourdir l’expression :
« Nous aurons tout remis en ordre avant que le maître revienne. » (l’assurance bannit la crainte)
« Les assiégés se hâtent de renforcer les barricades avant que l’ennemi ne revienne à l’attaque. » (la hâte trahit la crainte)

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expl%C3%A ... _ne_%C2%BB
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Le Baron » Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:57 pm

Dragon27 wrote:
Le Baron wrote:It is specifically used with constructions that start (in English) with 'I fear that', I'm worried that'. These are apprehension or better 'concern'. The example I gave is precisely that.

Does the sentence in the book imply apprehension? Cause it doesn't really seem like that to me (unless Manstein was concerned about conducting the military exercise to test his plan before he departed).
I was just trying to see if the shade of meaning that is described on the wiki page can be found in this case:
Si les locutions « de peur que », « de crainte que » suivent logiquement ce principe, il est aujourd’hui recommandé par les manuels de bon usage, de ne pas l’utiliser dans certaines subordonnées telles celles construites avec « avant que ». Si la plupart du temps, on a raison de suivre cette recommandation, on peut obéir tout aussi bien dans les cas qui le demandent au « réflexe d’appréhension » qui ne vient d'ailleurs pas alourdir l’expression :
« Nous aurons tout remis en ordre avant que le maître revienne. » (l’assurance bannit la crainte)
« Les assiégés se hâtent de renforcer les barricades avant que l’ennemi ne revienne à l’attaque. » (la hâte trahit la crainte)

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expl%C3%A ... _ne_%C2%BB


In my first post I'm talking about the sentence I gave as an example, and the first one in your preceding post, and how this is one instance where it commonly occurs. In the bit you quoted above I have wrongly written 'specifically' and it should be something else...'generally' maybe.
The sense of apprehension exists in e.g.: 'j'y retourne avant qu'il ne soit trop tard' or something like that. This is what I was trying to show, that it often occurs in constructions like this and that they turn up fairly regularly.

I do think there is a sense of apprehension or better urgency in the sentence DaveAgain gave. That this happened just before he was to depart (probably just in time?). I don't know, I haven't read the book, but I know the construction and that it turns up a lot under those circumstances.
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Kraut » Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:02 am

transcripts at the bottom

Parlons pratiques ! #13 Le plurilinguisme, une chance pour l'École

https://podcasts.audiomeans.fr/extra-cl ... e-96c9d450

Dans une classe, il n’est pas rare qu’on rencontre de nombreuses langues : langues premières, maternelles, étrangères, régionales... et langue de scolarisation. Pour les enseignants, c’est parfois déroutant.

Comment accueillir ces langues ? Comment en faire un levier pour l’apprentissage du français et aussi pour le climat scolaire ? Car accueillir des élèves nouvellement arrivés (EANA) est un enjeu qui concerne en réalité tous les élèves et tous les professeurs ! Dans ce « Parlons pratiques ! », Amélie Leconte, maîtresse de conférences en sciences du langage et spécialiste de la didactique des langues-cultures, et Émilie Bossé, enseignante en CP, expliquent en quoi le plurilinguisme des élèves est une chance pour l'École plutôt qu'un obstacle.


In a classroom, it is not uncommon to encounter many languages: first languages, mother tongues, foreign languages, regional languages and the language of schooling. For teachers, this can be confusing.

How can we welcome these languages? How can they be used as a lever for learning French and also for the school climate? Because welcoming newly arrived pupils (EANA) is an issue that concerns all pupils and all teachers! In this "Let's talk about practice", Amélie Leconte, a lecturer in language sciences and a specialist in the didactics of languages and cultures, and Émilie Bossé, a first-year teacher, explain how the plurilingualism of pupils is an opportunity for the school rather than an obstacle.

-------
Les Énergies scolaires #29 - Le bilinguisme précoce, l’exemple du breton

https://podcasts.audiomeans.fr/extra-cl ... n-324a15a2

-----
Available podcasts
https://podcasts.audiomeans.fr/extra-cl ... e7080876c8
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Le Baron
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Le Baron » Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:52 pm

Interesting podcast. I liked the bit about getting families to openly talk about what languages they spoke at home and not to feel like they had to say they spoke French in order to avoid being seen as 'not trying'. That their home language has value. And getting children to value these languages in the classroom. What's not to like?

The argument put forward about not suppressing the first language, or rather fully teaching in the country language, is similar to the thing Krashen was involved with in having Spanish-speaking immigrants not be pushed into learning English. In that case it was supposed to be a failure with the children lagging behind in English. I don't know enough details about this to assess it. I remember that when I was at school a Chinese girl there had a distinctly Chinese accent despite being born in the UK because the family spoke Cantonese at home. Yet she was perfectly fluent. All her siblings were the same. That was more about accent perception and I think it registers as somehow not being fluent or understanding the language, which is not accurate.

Still I wonder that when you are growing up in an environment where the country language isn't directly spoken at home as the main language, how much effect this has on your depth and grasp from usage, and also the lack of usual heritage language capital from relatives. In the podcast they made a distinction between the language used informally and la langue dans le contexte scolaire which is different.
Last edited by Le Baron on Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby DaveAgain » Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:36 pm

Le Baron wrote:Still I wonder that when you are growing up in an environment where the country language isn't directly spoken at home as the main language, how much effect this has on your depth and grasp from usage, and also the lack of usual heritage language capital from relatives. In the podcast they made a distinction between the language used informally and la langue dans le contexte scolaire which is different.
I watched a series of videos made by a French infants teacher a while back, she had worked in a school with a lot of immigrant children.

She emphased the importance of enriching the children's vocabulary, she said it had a direct correlation with their academic achievement. Ground lost a young age would never be made up.
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Le Baron » Fri May 13, 2022 5:53 pm

I always found it odd that in France, maybe not all the time, many ordinary actors are referred to as 'comedians' or 'un grand comédien'. I was just watching an Arte documentary (on youtube actually) about Michel Piccoli and it described him as:
Portrait captivant d'un comédien hors norme.

Now he's really the last person you'd think of as especially a 'comedian'. In any case Truffaut in his Radioscopie interview seemed to me unwilling to accept the word as a general definition, so I think he must have saw it as a poor or outmoded description. It explains why Romy Schneider was totally perplexed when the interviewer kept on about it considering the tone and subject matter of the films they were discussing.

However, this is Alain Delon in an interview with Figaro in 2018:
Ma carrière n’a rien à voir avec le métier de comédien. Comédien, c’est une vocation. C’est la différence essentielle – et il n’y a rien de péjoratif ici – entre Belmondo et Delon. Je suis un acteur, Jean-Paul est un comédien. Un comédien joue, il passe des années à apprendre, alors que l’acteur vit. Moi, j’ai toujours vécu mes rôles. Je n’ai jamais joué. Un acteur est un accident. Je suis un accident. Ma vie est un accident. Ma carrière est un accident.

So his view is that a 'comedian' is a specialist who learns to only 'play' the roles, like an impersonator, whereas the actor 'lives' the roles. I don't think this is really as defined as that these days. Many comedians have put in exemplary 'straight' acting performances (think of Coluche in Claude Berri's Tchao Pantin.) And Michel Piccoli is primarily known as a 'straight' actor in this sense. Straight actors sometimes do comedy. We know that, it's part of acting.

The words acteur/comédien are so commonly used as rough synonyms, but it still seems to me wrong to use it to mean any actor. Comedian has a defined sense and the original Greek, even if it might not map exactly to the modern sense of comedian, doesn't just mean 'actor'. If you describe someone known as a dramatic actor as a 'comedian' it seems weird to me.
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby jeffers » Sat May 14, 2022 7:39 am

Le Baron wrote:I always found it odd that in France, maybe not all the time, many ordinary actors are referred to as 'comedians' or 'un grand comédien'. I was just watching an Arte documentary (on youtube actually) about Michel Piccoli and it described him as:
Portrait captivant d'un comédien hors norme.

Now he's really the last person you'd think of as especially a 'comedian'. In any case Truffaut in his Radioscopie interview seemed to me unwilling to accept the word as a general definition, so I think he must have saw it as a poor or outmoded description. It explains why Romy Schneider was totally perplexed when the interviewer kept on about it considering the tone and subject matter of the films they were discussing.

However, this is Alain Delon in an interview with Figaro in 2018:
Ma carrière n’a rien à voir avec le métier de comédien. Comédien, c’est une vocation. C’est la différence essentielle – et il n’y a rien de péjoratif ici – entre Belmondo et Delon. Je suis un acteur, Jean-Paul est un comédien. Un comédien joue, il passe des années à apprendre, alors que l’acteur vit. Moi, j’ai toujours vécu mes rôles. Je n’ai jamais joué. Un acteur est un accident. Je suis un accident. Ma vie est un accident. Ma carrière est un accident.

So his view is that a 'comedian' is a specialist who learns to only 'play' the roles, like an impersonator, whereas the actor 'lives' the roles. I don't think this is really as defined as that these days. Many comedians have put in exemplary 'straight' acting performances (think of Coluche in Claude Berri's Tchao Pantin.) And Michel Piccoli is primarily known as a 'straight' actor in this sense. Straight actors sometimes do comedy. We know that, it's part of acting.

The words acteur/comédien are so commonly used as rough synonyms, but it still seems to me wrong to use it to mean any actor. Comedian has a defined sense and the original Greek, even if it might not map exactly to the modern sense of comedian, doesn't just mean 'actor'. If you describe someone known as a dramatic actor as a 'comedian' it seems weird to me.


On a thread on Wordreference https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/comdien-and-acteur.119731/, the two French speakers agree that "comédien" is mainly for stage actors (and nothing to do with humour), while "acteur" is mainly for film actors. "Comédien" can be used for both, but you wouldn't call a stage actor an "acteur".
Comédien is mostly used to name people acting in a play on stage in a theatre (La Comédie Française for example where there is not only funny plays ? )
Vs Acteur is mostly employed to name people acting in a movie .
In the reality of professions the same people might be rather /une comédienne ou une actrice /un comédien ou un acteur , there is no difference /but you won't use un acteur de théâtre , it is supposed to be allways un comédien sur scène /Vs un comédien may be said for someone playing in a Film ...:D


The fact that Alain Delon goes to such pains to explain the difference to a French audience is probably evidence that for most French speakers there is little distinction between the terms in every day speech. If anything, in common use "comédien" is more of an artist, and "acteur" is considered a bit lesser, so he is defending himself as an acteur.

One thing that that I have noticed from seeing the term "comédien" in action is that it has nothing to do with comedy roles. There, I think you're mixing in your English understanding of the term.
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Le Baron » Sat May 14, 2022 2:04 pm

jeffers wrote:On a thread on Wordreference https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/comdien-and-acteur.119731/, the two French speakers agree that "comédien" is mainly for stage actors (and nothing to do with humour), while "acteur" is mainly for film actors. "Comédien" can be used for both, but you wouldn't call a stage actor an "acteur".

That a lot of French people don't think about the difference (or care) is precisely the reason I posted this. In anycase stage actors do get called un acteur. And conversely comédien is routinely used for actors of any kind, very often film actors, and in the way Delon tried to express. More like what would be called a 'character actor' in English. As compared to someone like Cary Grant who generally played a version of himself, much like Delon.

jeffers wrote:One thing that that I have noticed from seeing the term "comédien" in action is that it has nothing to do with comedy roles. There, I think you're mixing in your English understanding of the term.

I had a French-speaking mother and she used the term 'comédien' which is why I had an initial confusion back then when she described actors as such; me living in an English-speaking country where the word comedian is particularly defined. The problem was compounded, because you pick up traits and my older brother still says 'comédien' if he's talking to my aunt. I remember him using it to describe Jim Carrey to her (though I think this is accurate as a character actor).
As a result, until I was at school I thought 'comedians' were film actors (who might be funny or not funny) until I learned different. At school I once described a joke-telling type comedian as a 'clown', which was also shot-down and I'm sure the teacher thought I was subnormal.
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