Classical Languages - Study Group

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
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RyanSmallwood
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby RyanSmallwood » Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:07 am

guyome wrote:Another type of exercise I found useful but almost never see in textbooks is the "snowball". The textbook I used to learn Latin made (a limited) use of it and I thought it was great to help the reader build the habit of reading longer, more complex sentences:
1. Dei cives audiunt.
2. Omnes dei fortes cives audiebant.
3. Omnes dei in templis fortes cives patriam amantes audient.
4. Omnes civitatis dei in ingentibus templis fortium civium patriam amantium verba audiverant.


There's a textbook Cæsar for beginners - The Helvetic war that breaks down the beginning of Caesar's Gallic Wars like this, i.e. the beginning goes:

1. Gallia est divisa.
2. Gallia est divisa in partes tris.
3. Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tris.

...and so on. There's also audio recordings on the The Latinum Institute patreon, although I find his slow exaggerated readings hard to absorb at times.
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David1917
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby David1917 » Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:52 pm

einzelne wrote:I made it through the first half of LLPSI and was unpleasantly surprised with the speed Ølberg introduces new verb tenses and forms. I decided to google suggestions for some supplementary readings and materials at this stage, but instead I discovered this.

What’s wrong with LLPSI:
1. Replicating Roman Ideologies.
2. Centering of Roman elites
3. Violence
4. The sexist portrayal of women.
5. Everyone depicted as “white”
6. Christian overtones

Tell me I'm dreaming. I mean, we have a real pedagogical masterpiece but instead of thinking how can we replicate it, or expand it by adding more graded readers we need to be worried about this. So, all other problems with Latin language pedagogy have been fixed long time ago?


That has to be the stupidest thing I've ever read in my entire life, and I've read a lot of stupid things. LLPSI is not meant to be a guidebook for how to live today, it is meant to teach you Latin, and a vast majority of what you read from the classical era is likely to...do all of those things. So maybe Latin just isn't for you, and get over yourself.
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MorkTheFiddle
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:00 pm

RyanSmallwood wrote:
guyome wrote:Another type of exercise I found useful but almost never see in textbooks is the "snowball". The textbook I used to learn Latin made (a limited) use of it and I thought it was great to help the reader build the habit of reading longer, more complex sentences:
1. Dei cives audiunt.
2. Omnes dei fortes cives audiebant.
3. Omnes dei in templis fortes cives patriam amantes audient.
4. Omnes civitatis dei in ingentibus templis fortium civium patriam amantium verba audiverant.


There's a textbook Cæsar for beginners - The Helvetic war that breaks down the beginning of Caesar's Gallic Wars like this, i.e. the beginning goes:

1. Gallia est divisa.
2. Gallia est divisa in partes tris.
3. Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tris.

...and so on. There's also audio recordings on the The Latinum Institute patreon, although I find his slow exaggerated readings hard to absorb at times.

To some extent, Wilfred Major and Abigail Roberts follow this approach in Plato: A Transitional Reader, using a few of the dialogs.
Not quite the same approach, but Claude Pavur in a Kindle book, Learn Latin with Seneca: An Acceleration Reader with Pari Passu Translation, staggers the text not as a snowball but as a series of complete phrases and clauses.
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tractor
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby tractor » Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:51 pm

Has anybody here tried Latin by the Natural Method by Fr. William Most? How does it compare with Øgrim?
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MorkTheFiddle
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:12 pm

einzelne wrote:I made it through the first half of LLPSI and was unpleasantly surprised with the speed Ølberg introduces new verb tenses and forms. I decided to google suggestions for some supplementary readings and materials at this stage, but instead I discovered this.

What’s wrong with LLPSI:
1. Replicating Roman Ideologies.
2. Centering of Roman elites
3. Violence
4. The sexist portrayal of women.
5. Everyone depicted as “white”
6. Christian overtones

Tell me I'm dreaming. I mean, we have a real pedagogical masterpiece but instead of thinking how can we replicate it, or expand it by adding more graded readers we need to be worried about this. So, all other problems with Latin language pedagogy have been fixed long time ago?

The article you reference by Seumas Macdonald is the first of five. In the first, Seamus Macdonald and Gregory Stringer list the shortcomings of LLPSI. Both Macdonald and Stringer have taught Latin for a number of years using LLPSI, and they deal with its shortcomings in various ways with various additional readings in Latin, class activities and class discussions.

Here are the five articles, which include discussion of their additional activies:
Part 1
Part 2
Part 2b
Part 3
Part 4
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einzelne
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby einzelne » Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:57 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:they deal with its shortcomings in various ways with various additional readings in Latin, class activities and class discussions.


Yes, they have 5 separate posts and 3 (three!) of which discuss non-issues like bogus concerns regarding 'the Christian elements in LLPSI' (literally 1 chapter out of 35!) or violence: "Personally, I have not had a student who has voiced discomfort with the familial violence in LLPSI", "Likewise, I have never had a student specifically say that the violence in LLPSI bothered them, only other teachers." — thanks, guys, for your virtue signaling!

Yes, they enumerate the shortcoming of LLPSI. As an independent language learner, I can spot them myself, thank you very much. What I would like to see from the experienced teacher is some specific recommendations about additional texts, textbooks, or adapted books. Do they mention them? I struggled to find it behind the never-ending discussion of the countless crimes Ølberg committed according to the new moral standards.
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MorkTheFiddle
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:07 pm

einzelne wrote:
MorkTheFiddle wrote:they deal with its shortcomings in various ways with various additional readings in Latin, class activities and class discussions.


Yes, they have 5 separate posts and 3 (three!) of which discuss non-issues like bogus concerns regarding 'the Christian elements in LLPSI' (literally 1 chapter out of 35!) or violence: "Personally, I have not had a student who has voiced discomfort with the familial violence in LLPSI", "Likewise, I have never had a student specifically say that the violence in LLPSI bothered them, only other teachers." — thanks, guys, for your virtue signaling!

Yes, they enumerate the shortcoming of LLPSI. As an independent language learner, I can spot them myself, thank you very much. What I would like to see from the experienced teacher is some specific recommendations about additional texts, textbooks, or adapted books. Do they mention them? I struggled to find it behind the never-ending discussion of the countless crimes Ølberg committed according to the new moral standards.

One of the articles refers to Latin novellas. Google might show some examples.
There is also Hiberna Caroli Raetici. Click 'Reading material' on the left side of the page.
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einzelne
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby einzelne » Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:15 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:There is also Hiberna Caroli Raetici.


Great! I've already had it in my bookmarks but I bookmarked so many pages re Latin that I completely forgot about this invaluable source. Thanks!
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feleslucis
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby feleslucis » Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:35 pm

I wouldl like to take part of this study group. The classical languages I study are Latin, Koiné Greek, Coptic, Hebrew and Aramaic. I plan to learn Sanskrit in the future too.
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MorkTheFiddle
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:13 pm

feleslucis wrote:I wouldl like to take part of this study group. The classical languages I study are Latin, Koiné Greek, Coptic, Hebrew and Aramaic. I plan to learn Sanskrit in the future too.

Welcome aboard! Glad to have you!
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