Dutch Study Group

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
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Sonjaconjota
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Sonjaconjota » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:08 pm

Oh, I forgot one that actually deserves a place of honour:
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Le Baron
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Le Baron » Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:50 pm

tommus wrote:Duolingo Online Events (Zoom)

For those who have not yet discovered the new Duolingo Events on Zoom, you should give them a try. They are free Zoom events of usually an hour with a host and a number of learners. The skill levels are generally Beginners and Intermediate. They are free but it looks like there will also be a paid version coming. The Events are available in many languages. Here is the link for the current Dutch Events. Note that many of them are already fully subscribed so you may have to subscribe a week or so into the future. The Events are very informal, sometimes with some tutorials at the beginning by the host and then breakout rooms with 2-4 people to discuss topics or to chat freely.

Duolingo Events - Dutch


I was perusing these yesterday and thought about doing one of the Dutch ones since it looked as though a goodly number were involved. Then I saw it was at 08:30 in the morning! When I'm already gone out of the house. A pity.

Have you done one of these?
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tommus
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:56 pm

Le Baron wrote:Have you done one of these?

Yes. About 55 of them so far.
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Le Baron
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Le Baron » Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:22 pm

tommus wrote:
Le Baron wrote:Have you done one of these?

Yes. About 55 of them so far.

Blimey! So you're a veteran. How do they go generally? Do you end up getting equally matched to people? Before Covid I went to a face-to-face Duolingo Esperanto meetup held at an IKEA cafe and it had people who were practically beginners alongside more fluent speakers. I was okay with that, though maybe some of the learners felt overwhelmed.

If I can find a reasonable time slot I'll try one of the Dutch ones.
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tommus
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:11 pm

Le Baron wrote:How do they go generally? Do you end up getting equally matched to people?

Generally they are very interesting with people from all around the world. There is usually a variety of levels but that is not a big problem. Everyone is nice and reasonable, and everyone gets a chance to speak and listen. It is all very casual and friendly.
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Ogrim
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Ogrim » Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:49 pm

Greetings, Dutch learners. I've decided to come by because I have taken up Dutch (again) and I have found a lot of interesting tips and links to resources in this thread.

I learnt Dutch back in the late 1990s when I was living in Brussels. Although the Belgian capital is overwhelmingly French, I was still very much in contact with the Dutch language in its Flemish variant. I took some courses for a couple of years, but most of all I learnt a lot by spending time watching Flemish TV, reading Flemish newspapers and magazines and visiting Flemish towns and cities at least once or twice every month.

I still have a good understanding of written Dutch, and, depending on the dialect, the spoken language, but I am really not able to speak Dutch any longer, and I won't even mention writing the language.

As I have said in my log, my son will spend at least the next three years in The Hague. We went there early August and I really enjoyed it, so we will certainly return several times and I want to be able to better understand the Dutch spoken in the Netherlands and also be able to express myself in the language.

I am not going to do any courses or classes (at least for the time being), but I will revise grammar, refresh and learn vocabulary, and regularly watch videos and news programmes in Dutch.
Last edited by Ogrim on Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Le Baron
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Le Baron » Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:49 pm

Ogrim wrote:I still have a good understanding of written Dutch, and, depending on the dialect, the spoken language, but I am really not able to speak Dutch any longer, and I won't even mention writing the language.
...I want to be able to better understand the Dutch spoken in the Netherlands and also be able to express myself in the language.

Can I ask, do you feel there is a gulf of any kind between Dutch in Vlaanderen and Dutch in NL? I'm not insinuating you do, but I see and hear this quite a lot online and IRL. I also initially learned Dutch in Belgium, then later moved over the border eventually to Nijmegen. I never really found a major difference and that it is largely superficial - in terms of the standard language at any rate. When I got to Utrecht I was puzzled that people wanted subtitles for some Flemish programming.

I'm not saying there is no difficulty. There are areas in Belgium with impossible accents and dialects - as exemplified in films like Aanrijding in Moscou - but there are the same in NL. As you probably know there are native speakers in this little country who consider areas outside the Randstad unintelligible. However for the Algemeen Nederlands/Algemeen Vlaams there's no great barrier.

I still have an aversion to the guttural G and still haven't adopted the word 'hartstikke'. :lol:
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Ogrim
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Ogrim » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:23 am

Le Baron wrote:Can I ask, do you feel there is a gulf of any kind between Dutch in Vlaanderen and Dutch in NL? I'm not insinuating you do, but I see and hear this quite a lot online and IRL.


No, I don't think there is a gulf at all. I certainly don't see any difference in written Dutch from the two sides of the border. For me the main difference (which makes Netherlands Dutch harder sometimes) is in phonetics. For instance, Flemish Dutch-speakers seem to use almost exclusively a short thrilled -r- sound, while I find that in most NL Dutch it is often closer to the English -r- sound, depending on its position within the word. I also find that vowels are generally pronounced with a more open sound in Flemish Dutch, and that the guttural g-sound is softer. (A Dutch friend of my son told him that the g-sound gets harder and more pronounced the further north you go.) Also, although I don't know if it is true or just an impression, I find that the Flemish generally speak slower than their northernly neighbours.

I've been watching quite a bit of NL Dutch TV news lately and as my ear gets used to the pronunciation I have less and less of a problem with this. I struggle more with series and movies where speech is less formal, but I am improving. :D

P.s. I am of course aware that there are expressions and words that are used in one country and not in the other - but that is also the case with French spoken in Belgium compared to France. Such differences also exist between dialects within the same country, so I would not consider that a significant difference between the two versions of Dutch.
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Le Baron
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Le Baron » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:54 pm

Ogrim wrote:For instance, Flemish Dutch-speakers seem to use almost exclusively a short thrilled -r- sound, while I find that in most NL Dutch it is often closer to the English -r- sound, depending on its position within the word.

It depends. In Vlaanderen the dental trilled 'r' has generally predominated, but there is a large number using the uvular trill. This can often be heard on the Belgian news and especially between fully bilingual speakers. The simple guttural 'r' is also in wide evidence in some areas.
That English-sounding 'r' in NL is something fairly recent, known as the 'Gooisch(e) R'. A form spread by media and associated with celebrity around Hilversum. It has crept into the speech of a lot of the middle-classes and is mocked here. Like when you hear shaggy-haired children saying 'vaaderrrr' rather than just 'vader'. It's really annoying actually.

Ogrim wrote:I also find that vowels are generally pronounced with a more open sound in Flemish Dutch, and that the guttural g-sound is softer. (A Dutch friend of my son told him that the g-sound gets harder and more pronounced the further north you go.) Also, although I don't know if it is true or just an impression, I find that the Flemish generally speak slower than their northernly neighbours.

The G is always softer and then indeed runs on a continuum over the border to about Utrecht where it gets increasingly harder (more or less). A very old man in Utrecht told me - about 20 years ago, so he's probably no more - that Utrecht had a soft G when he was a boy, but that influx from Amsterdam areas altered the sound. I don't know how true this is. Since I was first in Belgium, then the south - Limburg/Gelderland - I've never really got on with the guttural 'g' sound.

I hadn't thought about the speed difference specifically, though perhaps it's because at least in the official language the Belgians tend to articulate better imo and thus slow down somewhat. In NL people swallow a lot of letters.
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