Have you immigrated?

[anitarrc]

My friend G. has become a German citizen, after applying from Peru. Her grandfather fled the Nazis in 1937 and he was still alive to help.
It still took her almost 3 years.

Next nightmare was finding a job. Germans don't recognize anything unless they absolutely have to or are desperate. She is an accountant by training and ended up as a cook. You guessed, she is a cook in Luxembourg now.

Now that part also applies for Costa Rica. An Italian doctor, with 25 years of experience as a neonatal and general heart surgeon, could not get her title recognized although she speaks Spanish very well, decent english and excellent French. Her title is from Rome best university.. but no. The local hospital desperately needed a heat surgeon and wanted her to start yesterday. No.

In my experience, citizenship is only important if you need it for your safety and peace of mind. And if you would like to vote. I haven't voted in ages, as the EU allows you to live where you please, but not to vote for the people that represent you WHERE you live. Meaning I could vote for politicians of a country where I haven't lived for 45 years.

Hence, for the EU any citizenship will do. If you are Brazilian, Portugal or Italy are usually fairly accesible. Many Colombians became Spanish only to work in France.

To me, the real struggle is not the citizenship but the right to work and live in peace.

[Le Baron]

And if you would like to vote. I haven't voted in ages, as the EU allows you to live where you please, but not to vote for the people that represent you WHERE you live. Meaning I could vote for politicians of a country where I haven't lived for 45 years.

This particular facet of the EU 'jewel' has always been a source of irritation for me. Especially since the UK passed that corrupt law making ex-pat voting rights 'obsolete' after a certain period. To the effect that eventually you have no voting rights anywhere! It's absurd to live in a place, to pay taxes there and be completely involved, but have no voting rights.

[Ogrim]

And if you would like to vote. I haven't voted in ages, as the EU allows you to live where you please, but not to vote for the people that represent you WHERE you live. Meaning I could vote for politicians of a country where I haven't lived for 45 years.

This particular facet of the EU 'jewel' has always been a source of irritation for me. Especially since the UK passed that corrupt law making ex-pat voting rights 'obsolete' after a certain period. To the effect that eventually you have no voting rights anywhere! It's absurd to live in a place, to pay taxes there and be completely involved, but have no voting rights.

I don't want to derail the thread with a discussion on voting rights, but I want to add that if you are an EU citizen you can vote in local elections even if you live in another EU country. Member states however have vetoed any attempt to extend the right to national or general elections. So a German living in Paris can vote for the Mayor of Paris, but not for the President of France or for a member of the Assemblée Nationale.

As a Norwegian, I cannot even vote in local elections here in France, as Norway is in the EEA but not in the EU.

[Le Baron]

I don't want to derail the thread with a discussion on voting rights, but I want to add that if you are an EU citizen you can vote in local elections even if you live in another EU country. Member states however have vetoed any attempt to extend the right to national or general elections. So a German living in Paris can vote for the Mayor of Paris, but not for the President of France or for a member of the Assemblée Nationale.

As a Norwegian, I cannot even vote in local elections here in France, as Norway is in the EEA but not in the EU.

My problem is now like yours. Prior to Brexit I could vote in local elections, now I only get to vote in the 'waterschapsverkiezingen', essentially the water authority. Every time I go to vote they ask me the exact same question: 'are you not voting in the gemeenteverkiezingen?'

[iguanamon]

I sort of immigrated when I left the States for the US Virgin Islands, a US Territory (colony). While the American flag flies here, we have the US Postal Service, a Zip Code, the US Dollar, but that's all that's American about the place. It's a very Caribbean culture.

We are US citizens who cannot vote in US federal elections for the US President. We have no representation in the US Senate. We have a Congresswoman in the House of Representatives, but she has no vote. We do elect our own Governor and legislature.

Ironically, when I lived in England and Australia, I could vote in US Federal elections, but I can't vote while living in my own country!

[Iversen]

In my log thread I have just written about democratic Athens from its golden age, including that it had the same rule as most other places, namely that immigrants couldn't vote - and being a city state. local politics was country politics so for instance a guy like Aristotle presumably couldn't vote at all. Maybe that was one of his reasons for leaving the town and accepting a post in the kingdom of Macedonia as teacher for Alexander.

Personally I have never seen any reason to leave my country, but I have spent on average two months every year abroad on voyages.

[Cavesa]

In my experience, citizenship is only important if you need it for your safety and peace of mind. And if you would like to vote. I haven't voted in ages, as the EU allows you to live where you please, but not to vote for the people that represent you WHERE you live. Meaning I could vote for politicians of a country where I haven't lived for 45 years.

Hence, for the EU any citizenship will do. If you are Brazilian, Portugal or Italy are usually fairly accesible. Many Colombians became Spanish only to work in France.

To me, the real struggle is not the citizenship but the right to work and live in peace.

The voting rights are a very valid issue. A colleague of mine (a French living in the Switzerland) was totally surprised, when we discussed our future plans and I mentioned becoming a citizen and having the voting rights was very important for me. I am not sure where does the difference come from. It is a bit sad that some people don't find the voting rights that important, as long as you just get paid and can live somewhere. Perhaps it's the fact that she has a prestigious and safe French citizenship, while I have a much less prestigious citizenship in times, where Central Europe may yet again be directly under threat too (frankly, I am scared before every elections, given the power of desinformations. And I am scared that my country will yet again be thrown overboard by its allies as in the 1938, 1948, and 1968).

When I was in France and Belgium, I had certain rights as an EU citizen, even though the Belgian reality is very far from the paper. Now I am out of that rather free shared space. I have to redemand and change my immigration papers even when moving from canton to canton, which is annoying. Even my marriage doesn't automatically get recognized in all the cantons at once As I am a medical resident, I will very probably have to do all this several more times. And I won't have the voting rights anywhere, even on the local issues that affect my daily life.

But the Swiss have recently started a discussion on their citizenship, that's been very interesting. Traditionally they are not giving them easily. It comes with various advantages, such as not giving the very solid elderly rents to us, they have no middle eastern neighbourhoods, a rather small % of immigrants are not speaking any local language, a small amount of people long term abusing the system, and so on. But there are a few huge catches:

-they've finally noticed that having a different citizenship evaluation in every village is not ok and may be counterproductive. In some, people get tested or rather logical stuff. In others, people may be punished for "not integrating" based on the fact they work a lot. I work long hours, so I will never know most local shops, local services, local cafés, or even the library from the inside. Everything is closed, when I have free time. In some villages, it matters and such questions are really turning the citizenship process into a joke. So, there are finally discussions about what should the demands on the candidates be, what should be tested, what should matter in the interviews. Hopefully, there will be some more coherence, predictability, and equality at least at the level of each canton.

-they've finally noticed just how much they depend on the immigration. like 30% of the population are immigrants. For example, they'd have to close a lot of hospitals without us, but immigrants of course work in other places too. And when 30% of people living here long term do not have the voting rights, it becomes a huge human rights issue. Basically two classes of people.

So, who knows. Right now, my priority is finishing the medical residency, which will take ages. So long, that I will qualify for the citizenship demand. We are happy here with my husband, and can imagine having a family here. If I'll have finished residency and gotten the citizenship, we'll happily stay. But if they won't want me as a citizen, only as an eternal second class person, an eternal gastarbeiter, we'll move on back to the EU and get a citizenship in just a few more years there. By then, I'll be an extremely valuable asset anywhere.

[Peluche]

So, who knows. Right now, my priority is finishing the medical residency, which will take ages. So long, that I will qualify for the citizenship demand. We are happy here with my husband, and can imagine having a family here. If I'll have finished residency and gotten the citizenship, we'll happily stay. But if they won't want me as a citizen, only as an eternal second class person, an eternal gastarbeiter, we'll move on back to the EU and get a citizenship in just a few more years there. By then, I'll be an extremely valuable asset anywhere.

What would be the annual pay that someone like you could expect to have with 10 more years of experience?
When do you plan to retire?

[Peluche]

Unlike Japan, South Korea, India or Saudi Arabia, women can be independent and be treated equally to men in some European countries. In the four countries mentioned above, a woman's value and role is still very tied to a husband and to having a family.

Um, no.
You do know that India had a female prime minister for 15 years, right? Right?

[Xenops]

Unlike Japan, South Korea, India or Saudi Arabia, women can be independent and be treated equally to men in some European countries. In the four countries mentioned above, a woman's value and role is still very tied to a husband and to having a family.

Um, no.
You do know that India had a female prime minister for 15 years, right? Right?

But I’m not going to be the prime minister.