Have you immigrated?

[Peluche]

Unlike Japan, South Korea, India or Saudi Arabia, women can be independent and be treated equally to men in some European countries. In the four countries mentioned above, a woman's value and role is still very tied to a husband and to having a family.

Um, no.
You do know that India had a female prime minister for 15 years, right? Right?

But I’m not going to be the prime minister.

You could be many things
For instance, the leader of the largest opposition party is a Italian woman.
This is the party which used to be the leading party for decades.

[tractor]

The voting rights are a very valid issue. A colleague of mine (a French living in the Switzerland) was totally surprised, when we discussed our future plans and I mentioned becoming a citizen and having the voting rights was very important for me. I am not sure where does the difference come from. It is a bit sad that some people don't find the voting rights that important, as long as you just get paid and can live somewhere. Perhaps it's the fact that she has a prestigious and safe French citizenship, while I have a much less prestigious citizenship in times, where Central Europe may yet again be directly under threat too (frankly, I am scared before every elections, given the power of desinformations. And I am scared that my country will yet again be thrown overboard by its allies as in the 1938, 1948, and 1968).

A lot of people don’t vote even though they can, so maybe some of them don’t think that voting rights are important.

[Cavesa]

So, who knows. Right now, my priority is finishing the medical residency, which will take ages. So long, that I will qualify for the citizenship demand. We are happy here with my husband, and can imagine having a family here. If I'll have finished residency and gotten the citizenship, we'll happily stay. But if they won't want me as a citizen, only as an eternal second class person, an eternal gastarbeiter, we'll move on back to the EU and get a citizenship in just a few more years there. By then, I'll be an extremely valuable asset anywhere.

What would be the annual pay that someone like you could expect to have with 10 more years of experience?
When do you plan to retire?

Not sure. I think monthly like 10000-12000 francs brut. I am not in any of the highly prestigious millionaire specialties

In majority of Europe, most doctors are middle class. I've been raised as middle class, so my expectations and plans are based on that.

No clue about retiring.
1.no clue whether my generation will get any retirement. It's highly probable the system will fall apart due to demographics pretty much everywhere.
2.now I think more about less distant phases of my life, such as having kids. That's already complicated enough, among other aspects at the financial level. expecting people my age to also focus on retirement plans is sort of cruel (but the reality, I know).
3.given my country changing, long studies, etc, I have no clue, when will I qualify (even if there is still any retirement by then)

Rather than focus on retirement, I will of course consider things like part time job (once the residency ends), enjoying my life before old age and dementia, and also enjoying my job. That's the whole point of me fighting so hard for getting high quality training in a fascinating specialty instead of settling for a more accessible path that I'd hate.

[språker]

I can feel like voting is less important being an expat. You don’t feel you should decide for the country where you are a “guest”, and neither necessarily should decide in the country where you are not living for the moment either. If the percentage of citizens living abroad is small enough, it also feels like it matters less in the whole picture. You are so to say “between the systems” somehow, maybe for a whole generation...

[Peluche]

Not sure. I think monthly like 10000-12000 francs brut. I am not in any of the highly prestigious millionaire specialties

In majority of Europe, most doctors are middle class. I've been raised as middle class, so my expectations and plans are based on that.

No clue about retiring.
1.no clue whether my generation will get any retirement. It's highly probable the system will fall apart due to demographics pretty much everywhere.
2.now I think more about less distant phases of my life, such as having kids. That's already complicated enough, among other aspects at the financial level. expecting people my age to also focus on retirement plans is sort of cruel (but the reality, I know).
3.given my country changing, long studies, etc, I have no clue, when will I qualify (even if there is still any retirement by then)

Rather than focus on retirement, I will of course consider things like part time job (once the residency ends), enjoying my life before old age and dementia, and also enjoying my job. That's the whole point of me fighting so hard for getting high quality training in a fascinating specialty instead of settling for a more accessible path that I'd hate.

Now that I look at it, my question comes across as a bit crass, and it wasn't framed properly. Let me clarify.
This is all motivated by retirement. I am assuming there will not be much retirement benefits by state, in any country. This means we have to save ourselves, and this is where the salary question came from. So more precisely, if you do not expect to get much benefits from the state, how many years more would you need to work to retire, say for a middle class life? Suisse is an expensive country, and for people like us who emigrated to rich countries late, this is a disadvantage. Given this, do you plan to retire in Suisse or some less expensive EU country?

Children: yes, another very delicate topic (I do not know your age). I know of two other couples who were not able to have children due to fertility issues. And I suspect two other brilliant former colleagues who will probably not have children because they lost years jumping from country to country. You have a partner, so that is a huge plus in the pregnancy process. But you're a doctor, you must be worrying about fertility issues anyway.

BTW, what IS your speciality?

[Cavesa]

Now that I look at it, my question comes across as a bit crass, and it wasn't framed properly. Let me clarify.
This is all motivated by retirement. I am assuming there will not be much retirement benefits by state, in any country. This means we have to save ourselves, and this is where the salary question came from. So more precisely, if you do not expect to get much benefits from the state, how many years more would you need to work to retire, say for a middle class life? Suisse is an expensive country, and for people like us who emigrated to rich countries late, this is a disadvantage. Given this, do you plan to retire in Suisse or some less expensive EU country?

Children: yes, another very delicate topic (I do not know your age). I know of two other couples who were not able to have children due to fertility issues. And I suspect two other brilliant former colleagues who will probably not have children because they lost years jumping from country to country. You have a partner, so that is a huge plus in the pregnancy process. But you're a doctor, you must be worrying about fertility issues anyway.

BTW, what IS your speciality?

Well, those are rather personal topics, but as long as we stay within the discussion "how do we, as immigrants, plan to do stuff", it's ok.

For retirement: I don't know where. Where we'll be happy. It will also partially depend on where will we have gotten a citizenship. I hope it will be here, but know knows. One thing is saving for retirement, but a better approach is investing and diversifying the income, I may even need a different source than just employment in medicine, who knows. So, of course I am looking into my options. For example, the Switzerland has a functional second and third pillar or retirement insurance. It is a combination of saving, investing, insurance, with tax deductions of a part of the money. (That's an excellent idea that totally failed in the Czech Republic. On many problems, sure. But the main one: people have so low income that they don't really have what to save up in this way). But really, I am still in the phase of trying to get safely within the "some reserve saved every month" phase.

The first years in a new country are harsh. A lot of stuff to pay, lots of paperwork, getting used to stuff. For now, we are also living from one salary, which should change in a few months. My husband is near B1 now, working hard on getting to B2 soon, as that is a necessary requirement.

The question of kids, that's about many issues. Even if we put aside my medecine studies caused paranoia, there are also the very practical issues that have a lot to do with immigration, but not only. We need to save up, as I am likely to be unemployed for half a year, if the timing goes badly with my contracts, as I have only limited time contracts as a doctor in training. We'll need to do a lot of bureaucracy fighting (a new mom I've met joked, that her son would earlier get a highschool diploma than the birth certificate). Child care is very expensive here (and there seem to be significantly fewer places than for example in France), and we won't have grandparents here to help (but that is not just an immigration and distance issue. My generation will have working parents till very late compared to the previous ones).

So, I am gathering know how from all my colleagues with kids, especially immigrants. I listen a lot and make mental notes.

No clue how many years I need to work for retirment. I refuse to look it up and add this problem to the load of more imminent ones. As I've said, I am not even convinced I need to worry about it. I think retirement as we know it will end within the next twenty years.

Medical specialty: I am now aiming for internal medicine, as it is necessary for progress to most other specialties, including my real dream. For now, I focus on this. Even if I achieve "just" this and not a second one, I'll have good options anywhere in Europe.

So, now that I've answered a lot of stuff: what is your plan?

[Cavesa]

quote deleted at request.

This sounds rather harsh, which country are you in? Most civilised countries definitely give a right to medical leave, what changes are the conditions, the length, the money loss. But in most civilised countries, your employer cannot just not allow medical leave. Yes, it can create some troubles (well, right now, I am on medical 50% but expected to do 90% of my work) but they cannot just force you to work or get rid of you, if you have a medical certificate.

Yes, age can be an issue. If I were either younger, or older, I would have it easier than now in my 30's. I guess you are a man, while I am a woman

Take care of your health, especially mental health. Otherwise, you may not even need to worry about your retirement.

[Cavesa]

sure, quote deleted.

well, one of the huge advantages here are short maternity leaves. there are always advantages and disadvantages of each system, sure. The hospitals should accept, that penalising women for the possibility of having kids is simply illogical, because anyone can break a leg or arm and be absent for the exactly same amount of time.

But had I stayed in the Czech Republic, I may not have even wanted kids. It has the longest parental leave in Europe (the standard is three years, and you have nearly no child care accessible earlier than that. An average woman with two kids at the usual age difference may be out of normal work for even five years! Plus you have a huge male female salary disparity even for the same positions, which further discourages families from reversing the roles. The choice whether to work earlier is purely theoretical and society really forces women to destroy their early careers, and then punishes them for complying until the poverty in retirement. Even if you find an option of an early child care, and pay all your salary for it, the society will judge you as a horrible mother that should have never had kids. But you will be judged even if you don't have them. Men are free to do as they please.)

Yep, I do not envy people living and working in the US. It is simply weird that such a rich country, that aspires to lead the world, has actually such a low living standard and nearly non existent rights in so many areas, compared to even the poorer european countries. Hopefully, it will improve and catch up.

[Peluche]

well, one of the huge advantages here are short maternity leaves. there are always advantages and disadvantages of each system, sure. The hospitals should accept, that penalising women for the possibility of having kids is simply illogical, because anyone can break a leg or arm and be absent for the exactly same amount of time.

But had I stayed in the Czech Republic, I may not have even wanted kids. It has the longest parental leave in Europe (the standard is three years, and you have nearly no child care accessible earlier than that. An average woman with two kids at the usual age difference may be out of normal work for even five years! Plus you have a huge male female salary disparity even for the same positions, which further discourages families from reversing the roles. The choice whether to work earlier is purely theoretical and society really forces women to destroy their early careers, and then punishes them for complying until the poverty in retirement. Even if you find an option of an early child care, and pay all your salary for it, the society will judge you as a horrible mother that should have never had kids. But you will be judged even if you don't have them. Men are free to do as they please.)

Yep, I do not envy people living and working in the US. It is simply weird that such a rich country, that aspires to lead the world, has actually such a low living standard and nearly non existent rights in so many areas, compared to even the poorer european countries. Hopefully, it will improve and catch up.

My German teacher told me about lack of childcare in Germany as well.
This is absolutely incomprehensible to me. For all a generation's work, a country can survive only if there *is* a next generation. IMHO providing good childcare, and accessible housing to young couples so that they feel they have an option to have kids is a nation survival issue.
It seems some societies are managing this by shaming women into having kids at the expense of a career, not a healthy strategy.

[tiia]

I can feel like voting is less important being an expat. You don’t feel you should decide for the country where you are a “guest”, and neither necessarily should decide in the country where you are not living for the moment either. If the percentage of citizens living abroad is small enough, it also feels like it matters less in the whole picture. You are so to say “between the systems” somehow, maybe for a whole generation...

I honestly have to disagree here. Especially with the current (new) government in Finland I really miss my right to vote on the national level. I'm planning to post something about the current issues with the government in my log, but this is probably too political for this thread.
At least the right to demonstrate does not depend on your nationality.

I noticed something in your post: You seem to consider yourself being an expat. It sounds like you see your stay in Lithuania much more as a temporary thing, than a permanent one. (Although I assumend you're there permantly. - Please correct me when I'm wrong with these assumptions.) I can imagine that this feel of the stay being temporary vs. permanent can have a huge impact on the will to participate politically in a new place.
But I also think that migrants (emigrated or immigrated) can give some pretty unique and valuable perspective onto some issues. We're the ones who experience what certains laws do in other parts of the world. We could warn people about not doing the same mistakes as in other countries and we could also spread good ideas, either to the country we came from or the one we're living in. This first hand experience should be valued more.

I mean it's normal to first observe and try to adapt before making any judgements or start complaining. However, only because you are an immigrant you do not have to keep your mouth shut forever. Not everything is great in that new country. No matter where you go. But I think with time one does get a feel for what is an actual problem and what is just a difference, that still somehow works. You also develop a feel how to address things, which topics are sensitive for the locals and what is also annoying for them.