The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Ongoing language-learning challenges, and team challenge logs (but not individual logs)
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Ketutar
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby Ketutar » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:08 pm

iguanamon wrote:If your family already has cable TV and telemundo and univisión are part of the channel package already, am I going to tell you that you can't watch it for learning Spanish? ... no. If you already have subscribed to Netflix, Hulu, Viki am I going to tell you that you can't watch it, no.


I would. Because by the same logic one could say "I'm already a paying member of LingQ, so adding one more language isn't costing me anything". Or "my sister has this huge library full with language courses, so I can use that with no cost to me". No, if money is being paid to get an access to the material, now, later, earlier, what ever, it is not free and accessible to (most) everyone.
If I can't use a language course I found in the trash or that was given to me, I can't use any special offers or coupon codes either.
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iguanamon
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby iguanamon » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:56 pm

Ketutar wrote:I would. Because by the same logic one could say "I'm already a paying member of LingQ, so adding one more language isn't costing me anything". Or "my sister has this huge library full with language courses, so I can use that with no cost to me". No, if money is being paid to get an access to the material, now, later, earlier, what ever, it is not free and accessible to (most) everyone.
If I can't use a language course I found in the trash or that was given to me, I can't use any special offers or coupon codes either.

You are free to start your own challenge and make whatever rules/decisions you want. When I decided to do this, it was the first time I had ever started a challenge. Silly me, I didn't think about all of the possible ramifications of defining "free" and how much crap would arise from it.

When the challenge ends on November 21, 2018, I will restart the challenge by making it exclusively the existing pure version and the public library version. I will eliminate paid streaming services mainly because they're not really useful for a beginner to use to get to A2/B1 in a language anyway- unless it's a closely related language like between the Romance languages; Finnish and Estonian; German and Dutch; Ukranian and Russian. I could see it being useful in that regard. rdearman's trade option will be out.

There aren't many people left who are active in the challenge. LunaMoonsilver, rdearman, Spoonary and Elenia (apologies for spelling anyone's username wrong) are the only ones I can think of right now- and none of them are using any streaming service. The use of paid streaming services is pretty much a moot point. If people get upset about me eliminating it in the next challenge, fine, they don't have to take part in the challenge. It wouldn't be fair to eliminate it now as the challenge is already underway. For this cycle, the rules as stated apply. People must state upon entry the option they're using. In the final analysis, forum members will judge whether or not what participants have achieved is worthy. I've learned a lot with my mistakes in this first experience. The next time will be different.
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby AndyMeg » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:42 pm

Ketutar wrote:
AndyMeg wrote:You can watch k-dramas for free on sites like Dramafever and Viki, but they come with ads. But if you subscribe you can watch without ads. So, for this challenge, only watching dramas with ads would count? (Well, in Viki there's also the option of becoming a QC and get access to all the content without paying for a subscription, so I suppose that would count too).


I would say "no". Aren't these series copyrighted? I don't know how legal these sites are, but I see them as "pirated".

Dramafever and Viki are not pirate sites. As far as I know, they have legally obtained licenses from the owners. They are similar to Netflix, but they especialize in content from Asia (especially TV shows from China, Korea and Japan).
Last edited by AndyMeg on Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:47 pm

iguanamon wrote:There aren't many people left who are active in the challenge. LunaMoonsilver, rdearman, Spoonary and Elenia (apologies for spelling anyone's username wrong) are the only ones I can think of right now- and none of them are using any streaming service.


I never signed up for the challenge because I couldn't decide on a language. :) However, hadn't I seen your posts on the subject, I don't think I would have found the Learning by Ear dramas in French and Portuguese, nor the Veintemundos articles in Spanish. I also don't think I would have looked for news in French + transcripts, News in Slow Italian... Hey, I've mainly used free resources for everything (since late February?), except for library books in Swedish and English (isn't that the irony?) and a couple of other books I happen to own. I even started a minority language through Glossika!

I'll take the opportunity to quote an English teacher of mine, who always ended the lessons like this:

Thank you for your inspiration!
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby reineke » Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:03 pm

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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby Ketutar » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:06 am

AndyMeg wrote:
Ketutar wrote:
AndyMeg wrote:You can watch k-dramas for free on sites like Dramafever and Viki, but they come with ads. But if you subscribe you can watch without ads. So, for this challenge, only watching dramas with ads would count? (Well, in Viki there's also the option of becoming a QC and get access to all the content without paying for a subscription, so I suppose that would count too).


I would say "no". Aren't these series copyrighted? I don't know how legal these sites are, but I see them as "pirated".

Dramafever and Viki are not pirate sites. As far as I know, they have legally obtained licenses from the owners. They are similar to Netflix, but they specialize in content from Asia (especially TV shows from China, Korea, and Japan).


So I don't need to have a bad conscience? Good :-) Thank you :-)
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby Ketutar » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:14 am

iguanamon wrote:When I decided to do this, it was the first time I had ever started a challenge.

It's a great challenge!
I suppose the most "problems" arise when people want definite rules, and "free and legal" can vary according to the person, with grey areas and slippery slopes and so on - I think it was great that you said it's up to everyone's conscience, but people should be open about the material and sources, so that others can choose for themselves.

I, for example, accept LingQ, because I haven't paid one cent of the use. There still is a lot of texts available, and the dictionary exists, even when one cannot use the program fully. The free version is still useful.

iguanamon wrote:I've learned a lot with my mistakes in this first experience. The next time will be different.

Wonderful! :-) Eagerly waiting :-)
But I'm going to join you anyway, if it's officially too late, I'll just run my own race by the side :-D
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby rdearman » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:23 am

Ketutar wrote:
AndyMeg wrote:You can watch k-dramas for free on sites like Dramafever and Viki, but they come with ads. But if you subscribe you can watch without ads. So, for this challenge, only watching dramas with ads would count? (Well, in Viki there's also the option of becoming a QC and get access to all the content without paying for a subscription, so I suppose that would count too).


I would say "no". Aren't these series copyrighted? I don't know how legal these sites are, but I see them as "pirated".

They are not pirate sites. They lease old series to replay, just like Dave and some of the other cable channels. Viki streams premium licensed content and they make their money from advertisements, same as just about every station in the USA except PBS. To quote from their FAQ:

What is the process for licensing a TV show or movie?

We are in constant contact with content providers or CP’s, as we like to call them internally. CP’s are TV stations, producers, and distributors. Viki works with CP’s from all around the world. We license their content for Viki.com (desktop) as well as our mobile platforms and connected TV’s. We love hearing requests from fans, so we use our internal research results to select titles for negotiation. During this process, we and the CP’s determine the content availability, cost and geographic reach.
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby Elsa Maria » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:44 am

iguanamon, I am still participating in the challenge with Dutch (pure version) , but you would of course have no way of knowing that since I have not updated my log since March :oops: I have never been a good logger. I should probably pick a certain day of the week to update so that I form the habit.

I have more than enough free material to last me, and I am really enjoy my resources. I will admit that I did not spend as much time on Dutch over the last month as I should have, but due to some recent personal news it looks like I will be making multiple trips to the Netherlands over the next few years. That has upped my motivation tremendously!!
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby iguanamon » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:42 pm

Ketutar wrote:I'm going to join you anyway, if it's officially too late, I'll just run my own race by the side

Welcome! Anyone is allowed to join at anytime, you'll just have a little less time... now it's a little under seven months you'll have to reach at least A2 in a language. I don't know anything about LingQ. I've never looked at it or used it at all. If there is a free version of LingQ, then that's fine and within the spirit of the challenge. Just start an FLC log and state your language, challenge and main materials. If you need help finding materials, just ask.
Elsa Maria wrote:I am still participating in the challenge with Dutch (pure version)

It's good to know that you're still in. I wish you good luck.
jeff_lindqvist wrote:... However, hadn't I seen your posts on the subject, I don't think I would have found the Learning by Ear dramas in French and Portuguese, nor the Veintemundos articles in Spanish. I also don't think I would have looked for news in French + transcripts, News in Slow Italian... Thank you for your inspiration!

You're welcome, Jeff. I'm glad you got some use out of it anyway. I've been mentioning the VeinteMundos articles and the Deutsche Welle LBE radionovelas for years, but only a very few have ever used them, much to my surprise. There are hundreds of hours of free and legal audio and accurate transcripts available. In the DW LBE series, there are even English versions available too. There's the ability to make parallel texts with French and Portuguese, plus Swahili. I would have thought they would be more popular as learning aids... but there is a bit of work involved downloading the text and audio individually and making parallel texts out of the transcripts. If there had been a VeinteMundos equivalent for Portuguese, Ladino and Haitian Creole... I would have been all over it for sure.

To everyone participating. I would like to ask you, when you feel you are ready, to discuss- what has surprised you after having undertaken this challenge?; what has been of benefit to you in your learning from doing the challenge that you can apply outside the challenge to other languages?; do you feel that it forces you to make your own connections in a way that's different from having ideal resources available?; what does being restricted to a few less than ideal resources change for you in your learning, in other words, what are you doing differently in the FLC vs your non-restricted learning?

I really don't expect anyone to continue to B2 with the FLC and I certainly don't expect to see anyone reach C levels. While I believe that someone can indeed learn a language to a high level for free and legally, if someone is serious enough about a language to take it to a high level, then the artificiality of this challenge would be a useless impediment to gaining the benefit of having a language at a high level. The FLC can be useful to show learners who maybe have internet access, time and desire to learn a language but not the money or perhaps the desire to spend money, that they can indeed learn a language. There are going to be a lot of people who will come to us after duolinguo wondering what to do next. Those who complete the FLC will be able to show them that there is a free and legal path forward without googling "Assimil X With Ease.pdf". It can give these folks a roadmap to follow and show them that they can still learn a language even if they don't have the "best courses" or "best materials". It may even show them that they can be more resourceful and better language-learners in general for having done so.
Last edited by iguanamon on Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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