The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Ongoing language-learning challenges, and team challenge logs (but not individual logs)
User avatar
Elsa Maria
Blue Belt
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:20 am
Location: USA
Languages: English (N), Intermediate Danish.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6009
x 1275
Contact:

Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby Elsa Maria » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:33 pm

iguanamon, thanks for the effort you have put into setting up this challenge and its clarifications. I am very excited about it :)

I would like to follow those who are participating. I just read through the previous posts, but I may have missed someone:

rdearman: Setswana (pure) Czech (library)
Elenia: Portuguese (library)
LunaMoonsilver: Polish and Mongolian (pure)
Snow: Brazilian Portugese
Spoonary: Modern Greek
Elsa Maria: Dutch (pure)
Systematiker: Czech and Ukranian
2 x
Corrections are always welcome.

User avatar
reineke
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3570
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:34 pm
Languages: Fox (C4)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6979
x 6554

Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby reineke » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:57 pm

reineke wrote:
Finding free and legal resources is not a problem.
A1-A2 courses in 50 languages:
https://www.50languages.com/

Learn 48 Languages Online for Free:
http://www.openculture.com/freelanguagelessons

FSI/DLI
https://fsi-languages.yojik.eu


The Vocabulearn series and the Learn in your car series are available for free on Spotify. The list of languages includes French, German, Spanish, Italian, Russian, Mandarin and Hebrew.

How to Use Spotify for Language Learning

"The quality isn’t exactly Pimsleur, Glossika or Assimil..."

Oh, come on! Anyway, a neat guide:

http://www.lindsaydoeslanguages.com/how ... -learning/
4 x

User avatar
Systematiker
Blue Belt
Posts: 823
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 6:09 pm
Languages: ENG (N); DEU (C2+) // SWG (~C1); BAR (~C1); SPA (4/3); FRA (~C1); SCO (~C1); NLD (~B2*); LAT (Latinum Bavaricum); GRC (Graecum Bavaricum); CAT (~B2*); POR (~B2*); SWE (~B2*); HBO (Hebraicum); DAN (~B1*); RUS (~A2); KOR (~A1); FAS (still a raw beginner)
*Averaged for high receptive skill
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7332
x 2070

Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby Systematiker » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:48 pm

Log created at https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7742

Pure Czech, with-streaming Ukrainian
5 x

Spoonary
Blue Belt
Posts: 876
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:45 pm
Location: England
Languages: English (N)
Español (Adv), Italiano (Int), Esperanto (I try)
x 1656

Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby Spoonary » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:00 pm

I have just written a post on my log where I attempted to define what exactly I am aiming for when I say A2. You don't all have to go read it, I'll summarise it here, but I just thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss a little bit.

Basically, I find the CEFR level guidelines to be too general and not very helpful when trying to define what kind of level I have in my target languages. Do you all know exactly what you're aiming for when you start a challenge to reach A2 (or higher) in a certain amount of time, or is anyone as unsure as me? :?
4 x

User avatar
iguanamon
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2350
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:14 am
Location: Virgin Islands
Languages: Speaks: English (Native); Spanish (C2); Portuguese (C2); Haitian Creole (C1); Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol (C1); Lesser Antilles French Creole (B2)
Studies: Catalan
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=797
x 14164

Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby iguanamon » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:59 pm

I like your Greek specific A2 post in your log. Good topic, Spoonary! I chose CEFRL to have something to aim for in this challenge.
Wikipedia wrote:A2 Waystage or Elementary]
Can understand sentences and frequently used expressions related to areas of most immediate relevance (e.g. very basic personal and family information, shopping, local geography, employment).
Can communicate in simple and routine tasks requiring a simple and direct exchange of information on familiar and routine matters.
Can describe in simple terms aspects of their background, immediate environment and matters in areas of immediate need.

Yeah, this is a bit vague but let's look at it in the context of A1 and B1
Wikipedia wrote:A1 Breakthrough or beginner
Can understand and use familiar everyday expressions and very basic phrases aimed at the satisfaction of needs of a concrete type.
Can introduce themselves and others and can ask and answer questions about personal details such as where he/she lives, people they know and things they have.
Can interact in a simple way provided the other person talks slowly and clearly and is prepared to help...

B1 Threshold or intermediate
Can understand the main points of clear standard input on familiar matters regularly encountered in work, school, leisure, etc.
Can deal with most situations likely to arise while travelling in an area where the language is spoken.
Can produce simple connected text on topics that are familiar or of personal interest.
Can describe experiences and events, dreams, hopes and ambitions and briefly give reasons and explanations for opinions and plans.

I think the A1 and B1 descriptions are much more clear than the A2! A1 and B1 seem fairly clear to me but A2 kind of looks like "no man's land".
Here's what Benny at Fi3m.com says
Benny Lewis wrote:...This is a hotly debated topic, and you'll never find a perfect consensus for what any of the levels on the European Common Framework look like. That said, if you look at the various definitions, you can find some common threads.
To me, A2 is the level where a conversation can finally happen, as long as you accept that it will be slow, and you will have to use “crutches”.
As a total beginner, you know next to nothing. You have what seems to be a mountain of vocab and phrases and grammar rules ahead of you. But then, before you know it, you’re at A1. Here you can introduce yourself, and you can ask and answer direct questions (but you’ll start to get lost at any conversation past that).
Enter level A2. This is where your conversational flow begins.
Here, you can have (messy and imperfect, but effective!) exchanges with people that last several minutes, even if you’re still turning to your dictionary now and again. The other person will need to be patient with you, but they will get the gist. ... Even if you choose to stop at A2, you’ll find that what you’ve learned is really useful. Far from being a simpleton who can only talk about the weather, the A2 level is your window to being able to get to know new people, tell them about yourself and learn about them. At level A2, you can make friends. You can enjoy comics and cartoons. And you can laugh and even feel at ease in the language.
There will of course be a lot of things you still can’t do. You may not be able to talk with a random in-a-hurry native speaker, but you can absolutely find patient speakers who love talking to learners and will be very friendly and helpful, and you will feel yourself having real conversations with them.
Once you’ve hit A2, you can now truly communicate your thoughts, questions, or ideas to a whole new world of people. How cool is that? Very worthy as a project in and of itself!source

Benny goes on to further detail this in contrast to A1
What you CAN’T do yet (and shouldn’t expect from yourself) at this level
Understand half of what the other person says to you. At this point, you’ll likely recognize about 1 out of every 3 words.
Pronounce new words correctly on the first try.
Have a conversation with anyone – you will be ready to talk to patient natives who are used to conversing with foreigners for now
Have a conversation about anything – like I said at the start, this level means so much more than always talking about the weather, but you can still talk about many topics. The trick is that you have to be prepared to talk about that, and study the vocabulary in advance. Conversations about random topics come later.
Have perfect conversations. They will be messy right now, but you will be able to convey a lot of ideas.
Produce grammatically correct sentences. Our goal at the A2 level is communication, and this requires some “Tarzan” sentences. I’d recommend tidying up your grammar at the B levels, not before.
Understand the radio or news. You can start to enjoy cartoons or material made for learners.

So it looks like the bare minimum to be able to have some fun with the language, patient native-speakers being key. Benny says you can't listen to the news yet at this level, but I would disagree. If a learner is familiar with national or international news already, I think a lot of the news can be understood.

Interested to read more responses.
5 x

Spoonary
Blue Belt
Posts: 876
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:45 pm
Location: England
Languages: English (N)
Español (Adv), Italiano (Int), Esperanto (I try)
x 1656

Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby Spoonary » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:56 pm

Thank you for that post, Iguanamon. Putting those oh-so-general A2 descriptions in context really helps. Also, good old Benny to the rescue! I used to follow him pretty closely actually, until I noticed the limited scope of his methods and stopped. :roll: Still, it's in these early stages of language learning that his advice is most useful, so thank you for reminding me he exists :P
2 x

User avatar
kujichagulia
Green Belt
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:26 pm
Location: Japan via the U.S.
Languages: English (N), Japanese (intermediate), Portuguese (intermediate)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=858
x 566
Contact:

Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby kujichagulia » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:15 am

This challenge is so "iguanamon" it's not even funny. :lol:

I'd love to do this challenge! I already do the FLC route to an extent with my Portuguese studies (DLI, some YouTube-only videos, internet radio, news articles and blogs online, podcasts, etc.) and to a lesser extent with my Japanese studies. The less money spent, the better. So this challenge is definitely up my wheelhouse!

I've always been fascinated by how far a person can go using free resources to learn a language. Learning a language without having to spend tons of money opens doors for many people in the world.

If it weren't for the timing, I would already be in this challenge! I'm on a mission to get my Japanese and Portuguese studies back to high-quality consistency, and until I have proven I can do that, I worry about adding a third language. But then again, who knows? Maybe a new challenge is what I need to get back to consistency.

I was thinking about starting French sometime, anyway. French was my first love when I was a kid, and I'm still interested in it, so if I did a FLC challenge, it would probably be French. There are other languages I'm interested in, however: Spanish, Korean, Chinese (Mandarin), Italian, and maybe Catalan?
4 x

User avatar
reineke
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3570
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:34 pm
Languages: Fox (C4)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6979
x 6554

Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby reineke » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:29 pm

You know, libraries often charge a nominal fee that's usually lower than phone/internet subscription. I see that VPN/internet is ok. Good VPN iis not free. Netflix - the first month is "free"
Used book stores and library events is the closest you can get to "free". Eh...draw your own conclusions.
0 x

User avatar
LunaMoonsilver
Green Belt
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:09 pm
Location: Nottinghamshire, UK
Languages: English (N), German (C1), Mandarin Chinese (B1), Spanish (A2), Polish (A0)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17648
x 1345
Contact:

Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby LunaMoonsilver » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:48 pm

reineke wrote:You know, libraries often charge a nominal fee that's usually lower than phone/internet subscription. I see that VPN/internet is ok. Good VPN iis not free. Netflix - the first month is "free"
Used book stores and library events is the closest you can get to "free". Eh...draw your own conclusions.


I mean, that's true, but it also depends a lot on where you live. I'm taking my challenge as pure because, honestly, using the library to learn a language isn't free where I am. It's free to join and free to use a computer with internet there, but it's £1.50 per three-week loan of a language course, £4.25 per inter-library loan and £0.25 per item reserved. Not overly expensive, but all those small charges add up and I know that using a library I'd need a lot of those inter-library loans because there isn't much in the way of language courses (aside from phrasebooks) in my local one. If I can find resources that can be freely used online, then the only thing stopping a person going to the library and using them would be time--something that's a problem for all of us.
2 x
pronouns: she/her

: 31 / 365 365-Day Language Challenge; de, zh, es

User avatar
iguanamon
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2350
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:14 am
Location: Virgin Islands
Languages: Speaks: English (Native); Spanish (C2); Portuguese (C2); Haitian Creole (C1); Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol (C1); Lesser Antilles French Creole (B2)
Studies: Catalan
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=797
x 14164

Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby iguanamon » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:26 am

In my town, our public library has no fee for a card nor fees for materials use. It is taxpayer supported. I've stipulated internet access cost, having a computer or other internet connected device and even the cost of the electricity to run everything as a baseline part of the challenge. TANSTAAFL- There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch- is indeed true.

Generally, in life "you get what you pay for" as the old saying goes. I, myself, have used two free courses for Portuguese and Haitian Creole. I also used paid resources, but I could have done without the paid resources for Haitian Creole. Still, I believe that a learner using the internet or their public library (or a combination of the two) can get to A2 and maybe even B1 in many languages free and legally. B2 and beyond would be much more difficult without paying for something- books, tv series, films, tutors, travel. Anyway, we'll see how it plays out over time. I don't expect to see anyone here in this challenge take a language to B2 or beyond using only free materials. A2/B1, I think that's very doable for many languages- especially FIGS and even some smaller languages.

Sure, it's easier to go ahead and pay for what you want. It's also better to have more choice available and more that is of interest to the individual learner. And, yes, nothing is truly "free", as reineke rightly points out. The costs of a computer, smartphone, tablet and internet connection are a given. Most people have an existing subscription streaming service today for entertainment in their L1. The fact that something they probably already have is also available for advancement in language-learning is a huge bonus that a duolinguo user can use to their advantage.

This is a completely made-up challenge that artificially limits participants. The best way to learn a language is to do what works for the individual learner- be that purchased courses, internet subscriptions to learning resources, tutors, books, video, music, etc. I want to see if people can learn a language by limiting themselves (artificially) to what they can get for free online, or the library (without payment), or even the rdearman swap and trade method. Doing this can show that not only can anyone of reasonable intelligence and ability learn a language on their own, but that they can also learn it without having to spend any money other than what they already have for the internet (legally- we all know that we can get almost anything through other means online... though it's getting harder for the average joe these days).

The Pure Free and Legal Challenge is the (hardcore) version that almost all the participants have signed up for so far is what I see as the most valuable to the participant challenge. As someone who was forced to learn outside of the box because of the languages I chose to learn, I know that "less than ideal" resources can definitely be used for learning. I know that I can make the best of what I have available to advance. I've done that. Could you learn to listen without Buffy the Vampire Slayer dubbed dvd's and an accurate transcript? Yes, I believe you can, with free resources for many languages. Can you learn a language without Assimil, Michel Thomas, Colloquial and Pimsleur? Absolutely. Do you have to have a hard copy dictionary, paid or pirated e-books and videos, paid tutor? No, you don't. It may not be as enjoyable, in fact, it won't be. Any time I can use what I want instead of having to use what I have, that's optimal. Though, I must say that there is a certain sense of satisfaction that comes along with making the best of what is available.

Could an English-speaking learner learn Spanish to a high level for free (with my given expenses)? Yes, I believe so- FSI/DLI; VeinteMundos; GlobalVoices; librivox; project gutenberg; Destinos; Language Transfer; duolinguo; podcasts with transcripts; parallel texts; word reference; Linguee; Cervantes Institute, etc... Could a learner be more efficient and have a perhaps more enjoyable experience with Assimil, Pimsleur, a private tutor and any book or video of their choice, probably.

There's a reason why Assimil, Pimsleur and the other paid resources are useful, valuable and recommended to learners. They're well designed and they have a track record. They give the learner structure. They're easier to use and are more user friendly. If a learner has the option, which everyone outside this challenge has, why not take the best from wherever it can be found! This is a proven method time and time again... but we've all done/do that.

While many, if not most, will look upon this as a ridiculous, artificial limitation to learning a language, I think that there is a benefit to experimenting and challenging one's self with such limitations as in the Pure FLC. Being limited in such a way will force a learner to become better at utilizing the resources they have available and figuring out a way to use native materials to help them learn. So many times here, I see people who have worked with a course or two and finished them and then they ask: "So, now what do I do?". They seem to be lost without the structure that their course provides. Even when provided with beyond course resources, they often don't know how to use them to help them learn. When you have to struggle, scrape and scramble because you don't have ideal resources or a road map to follow, you provide your own structure. When you can do something effectively the hard way, the easy way is much easier. When I learned Ladino, Haitian Creole and LAFC, I found that having had that experience of scrambling for resources and figuring out how to use them to my advantage... I learned how to learn better, truly on my own.
11 x


Return to “Language Challenges”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests