The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Ongoing language-learning challenges, and team challenge logs (but not individual logs)
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Elenia
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby Elenia » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:33 pm

Oh, Polish!

Okay, I'm officially in! Although I won't be starting until sometime next week, earliest - maybe in two weeks. I just don't want to forget about this. I'll (hopefully remembet to!) edit this post with my actual start date when I do start.

Language: Portuguese.
Challenge: Library challenge. I'm going for this because I don't like reading on a screen. So I reserve the right to find books in a library. I might add the condition that the books I read would be ones that are available legally online anyway. I also reserve the right to wave my hands in the air like I just don't care and make this heavily audio based. I reserve the right to be utterly lazy and spend all my time actually in the library playing silly games on my phone. In Portuguese? Pssshaaaw.
Full disclosure: I have previously learnt French up to a standard where I could follow and pass university level classes, although not to a standard where I could speak to your average French teen on the street. Or in the club, or at my house, or anything. I once tried listening to 'The Little Prince' in Portuguese translation. I knew a few Portuguese people (European/Brazillian) a couple of years back who tried to teach me some words? I forgot the words they taught me and was very upset when I couldn't answer the 'På Spåret' question of how to thank someone in Portuguese (spoiler: it's Obrigado. Also, I can't spell).

I may well start a log just for this experiment. If I do, I will (hopefully remember to) post the link here, too.
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby AndyMeg » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:15 pm

It's very tempting but I won't be participating.

If anyone wants to try korean I could recommend some resources.

Even if I'm not participating I have a question:

You can watch k-dramas for free on sites like Dramafever and Viki, but they come with ads. But if you subscribe you can watch without ads. So, for this challenge, only watching dramas with ads would count? (Well, in Viki there's also the option of becoming a QC and get access to all the content without paying for a subscription, so I suppose that would count too).
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:59 am

iguanamon wrote:I met a Polish couple the other day here and I downloaded the rather substantial and thorough (though 49 years old) DLI Polish Basic Course (copyright free) from ERIC. There's no audio. I used the Haitian Creole course successfully without audio.


First of all, what a great topic! I'm almost thinking of accepting a pure challenge (or two!). Are the non-audio DLI courses a lot different from the ones at LiveLingua (those do have audio)?
https://www.livelingua.com/project/dli/Haitian/Creole/
https://www.livelingua.com/project/dli/Polish/

(I've actually thought of starting with Polish someday, but I'd have to force myself not to borrow anything from the library...)

Not that I have a lot of opportunities to use my other languages, but these are some of likely candidates for me (as regards interest and resources):
Slovak (up to B2, according to the website)
Indonesian/Malay - there should be something out there, right?
Catalan - if nothing else, I could listen to online radio.

Iguanamon - how far did the Haitian Creole course take you in CEFR terms? Would you do anything differently if you were to learn a similar language again? Or in other words, for which languages could you present a decent attack plan towards A2, B1 and B2 respectively? Remember, you're the expert and were just mere mortals in the world of learning something with limited resources. (Or are they limited?)

Speaking of fun challenges, some day I will study a language without taking any notes. Mainly to rely on memory and exposure instead of using Anki etc., maybe the language doesn't have written language, maybe there's enough listening material to create an "immersion" environment (I'm thinking of Theodisce's posts about listening to a related L2 for hundreds of hours). This could of course be combined with FLC.
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby Elsa Maria » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:16 am

OK, I am in! I will do Dutch.

At the moment, I know (at most) 20 Dutch words. My Danish should help. I estimate that I am at least B2 for reading and listening to Danish. My active skills are below that.

The only thing I possess for Dutch is a grammar book and some children's books/DVDs. But I am content to put them away until I reach A2 :) I doubt that my library has anything for Dutch so I will do the pure FL (non-library) version. I can't say that I always know which YouTube videos are in violation of copyright. Sometimes it is obvious to me, but not always.

I am going to start tomorrow. I'll use my regular log for updates.
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby iguanamon » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:45 am

Kdramas, viki, lingQ, all of these are useful tools for language-learners. I know what you mean. Netflix, Hulu, Viki all have a subscription service. Part of me wants to say no, because that's spending money. It's a slippery slope. What I want this challenge to demonstrate is that a learner can learn a language without having these useful tools- hopefully to at least A2 and maybe even B1/B2. It will be a hardship. Out of hardship often comes beautiful music- jazz, the blues for example. I expect that this challenge will force learners to get creative. That's why I think it will be really, really hard to advance to C1/C2 without access to material of one's choice.

Paying for an internet connection and a computer is a given. Paying for a subscription service is more of a gray area. If your family already has cable TV and telemundo and univisión are part of the channel package already, am I going to tell you that you can't watch it for learning Spanish? ... no. If you already have subscribed to Netflix, Hulu, Viki am I going to tell you that you can't watch it, no. However, if you're just getting it for the challenge, then that violates the spirit of the challenge which is free and legal. I, myself, subscribed to netflix primarily for the language aspect but my family watches it for L1 content. So, again, be honest with yourself and the community as to why you use a paid streaming service for this challenge.

What I'd like to avoid here is deviation from being free. I'd prefer to see learners in this challenge watch a series of youtube videos from vloggers or a TL web series not on a pay platform, or even better, listening to a bunch of TL podcasts. Still, I don't want to tell a learner that they can't watch a service they already pay for which can also be used to watch L1 content. Streaming services can be something not purchased specifically for language-learning. That's different from a course or a TL DVD series but this is still a gray area, so it just needs to be disclosed. I, myself, subscribed to netflix primarily for the language aspect but my family watches it for L1 content. So here's my compromise, you can use it, but not in the Pure FLC challenge. I'll make up a new variant and call it "plus pre-existing video streaming service" with the catch being it has to be pre-existing, already in place and not just for language-learning, and you have to make full disclosure so that everyone knows. If you want to do the Pure FLC, then No, don't use it.

As for lingQ, this is a specifically designed platform for language-learners. I want this challenge to show learners that they really don't need lingQ, or any paid language-learning platform, to learn a language to at least intermediate level. So, even though the site allows free downloads during a trial period, I feel that this would violate the spirit of the challenge. Plus, there's a lot of copyright material on that site. I'm going to say "No" to lingQ. The line has to be drawn somewhere. Sorry.

Something I was hoping for when I had the idea for the FLC was that it would spur learners to be creative, to design their own course of study using what is freely and legally available and maybe, just maybe, come up with something that's just as effective, or even almost as effective, as paying for something off the rack. I'm allowing duolinguo, although I believe that there are better free resources out there than duolinguo. My hope is that learners will see this challenge as an opportunity to spur creativity in learning. I feel that participants who try to adhere closer to the spirit of the challenge will get more out of it.

We can all learn a language practically for free- between downloading series, ebooks, courses, grammars, dictionaries and maybe spending just a little bit of money from time when we can't get what we really want. But can we do without that torrented Pimsleur course, the pirated e-book downloads, the dodgy streaming services, etc.?

At first, I didn't like rdearman's library challenge/swap challenge because if someone wanted to, they could just download Assimil and Pimsleur somewhere and say they got it from the library. The more I thought about it, I remembered that I like the concept of libraries and librarians. They perform a valuable public service to the citizenry and their use should be encouraged. I'm going to trust people to be honest about the materials and resources they use. After all, this is a challenge with one's self. It's a challenge to show learners that, with some effort and work, they too can learn a language above beginner level for free. If someone can borrow enough resources from the library to learn a language to B2, wouldn't that be cool! If rdearman can swap enough stuff to get legal language-learning materials for free, maybe even build up credits teaching English on italki to use on his own private tutoring... wow! If someone can combine all the variants and come up with a high level in a language by using all free and legal resources then we will have proven something.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with spending money to improve a language. In my experience, it's necessary. Spending $35 on a printed book with Rashi text and Latin Script on facing pages helped me to learn to read Ladino in Rashi... a skill I perfected with free materials afterwards.

This challenge/experiment, done within the spirit of the challenge, will also show that despite being able to learn a language for free, that spending some money in the right places can make the process a lot easier and perhaps more fun. I think even the dropouts in this challenge will benefit by being forced to think outside the box and learning how to learn with less than ideal resources, especially if they complete the challenge to at least A2. Just as I've benefited from having learned a couple of minority languages and a couple of less commonly studied languages. Participants will be surprised, finishing successfully or not, at what this process will teach them. So, that's why I'm being a little extreme with the resources and materials allowed and asking for full disclosure. There are plenty of other challenges for learners who want to use anything and everything to learn a language, where "everything counts". The Super Challenge is coming up a again soon. The 6 week Challenge is always around the corner. Tadoku is too.

Once again, if you think something may not be appropriate for this free and legal challenge, you're probably right.

I'll answer the other questions tomorrow.
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby AndyMeg » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:23 am

Thanks a lot for your answer, iguanamon! :)

If "pre-existing video streaming service" is allowed, this challenge becomes so much more tempting for me! (I started using those services many years before officially starting to learn korean).

The reason why this challenge is so very tempting to me is that what I'm currently using for korean and what I plan to be using for the next months seem to already mostly fall within the limits of this challenge. :mrgreen:

But I have some more questions before I decide if I'll join the challenge or not:

- There're some series of legally free korean textbooks with audio. They come in PDF but I prefer to print them in order to use them because that way I enjoy them more and I can get the most out of them. For printing you need some money, even if it's not much. So here it's my question: Would printing a free PDF textbook fall within the allowed limits of this challenge?

- I'm taking korean classes with a native speaker. Those classes started as free, but now you have to pay about 7 USD a month (1 class, about two and a half to three hours long, per week).

I recently bought a new grammar book. For this challenge I could give up on using this book and other grammar books I have (for the next 9 months or so). But I can't give up on my "almost free" korean classes and here are the reasons:

1) Where I live it is really hard to come by a korean class of any kind, let alone one teached by a native speaker (it is, actually, the only korean class I know of in the whole city).

2) If korean classes are rare, it is even rarer to find one at such "almost free" price. So I don't want to miss this opportunity.

[I recently traveled to another city within my country and, just out of curiosity, asked about the price for korean language classes from a language institute. The price was around 167 USD a month with a similar intensity that the "almost free" classes I'm currently taking. (And I know that japanese classes from another institute in that same city cost about 198 USD a month). The cheapest korean classes I've found so far (aside from the ones I'm taking) cost around 63 USD a month (with a similar intensity) and are in a different city from where I currently live in. And, just for reference, the monthly minimum wage in my country is currently about 271 USD]

So here it's my question: if I enter this challenge, would I be allowed to continue going to my "almost free" korean classes?
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby iguanamon » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:45 am

jeff_lindqvist wrote:... I'm almost thinking of accepting a pure challenge (or two!). Are the non-audio DLI courses a lot different from the ones at LiveLingua (those do have audio)?
https://www.livelingua.com/project/dli/Haitian/Creole/
https://www.livelingua.com/project/dli/Polish/

The DLI Polish courses at the usual sites, livelingua, jlu.wbtrain.com and Yojik are the refresher courses- not for beginners. FLAMRIC means Foreign Language Maintenance Refresher Intermediate Course. The Haitian Creole Basic Course is the same across all the sites. While it has audio with it, the audio ranges from poor to barely listenable to unlistenable. I had also used Pimsleur and had access to a native-speaker. HC is a phonetic language, so, once I learned how to pronounce it, it was fairly easy to do without the audio for 10 or 15 lessons.
jeff_lindqvist wrote:...Iguanamon - how far did the Haitian Creole course take you in CEFR terms? Would you do anything differently if you were to learn a similar language again? Or in other words, for which languages could you present a decent attack plan towards A2, B1 and B2 respectively? Remember, you're the expert and were just mere mortals in the world of learning something with limited resources. (Or are they limited?)

The DLI HC Basic Course is quite thorough. I never use a course on its own. I am always using it in combination with other tracks and courses. Still, I would say it would take a learner to A2 and maybe B1 if they were diligent and did all the exercises. Definitely B1 if another course is used along side it (like Ann Pale Kreyòl) or reading/listening. Oddly, there is plenty available for free for Kreyòl that can be adapted for learners- dictionaries, readers, a very basic grammar, books, podcasts (including one that explores aspects of the language for learners), government pamphlets, phrasebooks, a conversational course with pdf and audio (Ti Koze Kreyòl). I used mostly free resources for Kreyòl myself, even Pimsleur allowed free download of the first ten lessons of their course after the 2010 earthquake- not now though. I paid for the other 20 lessons.
jeff_lindqvist wrote:Speaking of fun challenges, some day I will study a language without taking any notes. Mainly to rely on memory and exposure instead of using Anki etc., maybe the language doesn't have written language, maybe there's enough listening material to create an "immersion" environment (I'm thinking of Theodisce's posts about listening to a related L2 for hundreds of hours). This could of course be combined with FLC.

This is a very interesting idea!
Last edited by iguanamon on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby iguanamon » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:56 am

AndyMeg wrote:...There're some series of legally free korean textbooks with audio. They come in PDF but I prefer to print them in order to use them because that way I enjoy them more and I can get the most out of them. For printing you need some money, even if it's not much. So here it's my question: Would printing a free PDF textbook fall within the allowed limits of this challenge?... I'm taking korean classes with a native speaker. Those classes started as free, but now you have to pay about 7 USD a month (1 class, about two and a half to three hours long, per week).
I recently bought a new grammar book. For this challenge I could give up on using this book and other grammar books I have (for the next 9 months or so). But I can't give up on my "almost free" korean classes
...So here it's my question: if I enter this challenge, would I be allowed to continue going to my "almost free" korean classes?

Por nada, AndyMeg. As I've said, I have to draw the line somewhere and paying even a little bit of money is outside the spirit of this challenge. I have been following your progress with Korean in your log and I admire what you are doing there in Spain so far from Korea and without having a substantial Korean immigrant community nearby. I had toyed with the idea of an "almost free" challenge, but really, that's what most of us do here anyway, every day. This Free and Legal Challenge is artificially constructed to exclude paying for anything except what you already have in order to demonstrate that it is possible to learn a language, from scratch, for free, legally.

Yes, you could print out your course. No, you can't pay for even almost free instruction (unless a non-monetary swap, rdearman exception were involved). You're doing so well with your Korean right now. Please, Please Please, Don't change what you're doing to join= this challenge!!! Plus, I really intend this to be a challenge for people to start a new language for free, not to continue one they are already learning. Keep up your great work with your Korean! I'll be following you.

For everyone else, please remember the spirit of this challenge. We are trying to show that anyone with an internet connection, a library card, and/or the creativity and desire to pull an rdearman and swap, can learn a language. Each variant will be different but similar in that no money changes hands in exchange for resources, material or native-speaker/teacher's help. The Pure Challenge- will be the most challenging because the learners will have to work with less than ideal resources and most likely resources they wouldn't choose if they could buy better ones. Can you use a comic book on cholera prevention and one on the Haitian constitution for learning? Could you read a book about how Haitian government works at all levels in the country? Could you listen to a podcast series about Democracy made by the US Embassy in Haiti? Could you read the Bible and do an online podcast with text about it? I have done all this. That's what I mean about having to work with what you have.

The Library Challenge means that it is theoretically possible to have access to much more choice but the price is logistics (will they have it?, can they get it?, when can you get it?) and limited time with the material. It's a different challenge.

Rdearman's Swap Exception requires creativity and ingenuity. I am more dubious of this option. If I were a beginner coming to this site, I probably wouldn't know many people who were into learning languages to be able to swap with them. What I find intriguing about it is being able to get native-speaker's help by doing something for them too... e.g.: teaching English or L1 on italki and earning credit for your own instruction on the site; mowing a French teacher's lawn in exchange for lessons. This is more extreme than I intended, and I don't expect many people to take this up, but it could be inspirational to someone in the future. So, that's why I'm allowing it as long as it stays within the spirit of the challenge. I want a beginner to be able to see themselves in the participants.

There has to be rules, or I could just say do whatever you want and it wouldn't be a challenge. If I challenged people to get into better shape for free (stipulating the cost of running shoes and exercise clothes) without going to a gym, someone would still try to finagle a gym and a personal trainer. :lol:
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby AndyMeg » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:06 pm

iguanamon wrote:
AndyMeg wrote:...There're some series of legally free korean textbooks with audio. They come in PDF but I prefer to print them in order to use them because that way I enjoy them more and I can get the most out of them. For printing you need some money, even if it's not much. So here it's my question: Would printing a free PDF textbook fall within the allowed limits of this challenge?... I'm taking korean classes with a native speaker. Those classes started as free, but now you have to pay about 7 USD a month (1 class, about two and a half to three hours long, per week).
I recently bought a new grammar book. For this challenge I could give up on using this book and other grammar books I have (for the next 9 months or so). But I can't give up on my "almost free" korean classes
...So here it's my question: if I enter this challenge, would I be allowed to continue going to my "almost free" korean classes?

Por nada, AndyMeg. As I've said, I have to draw the line somewhere and paying even a little bit of money is outside the spirit of this challenge. I have been following your progress with Korean in your log and I admire what you are doing there in Spain so far from Korea and without having a substantial Korean immigrant community nearby. I had toyed with the idea of an "almost free" challenge, but really, that's what most of us do here anyway, every day. This Free and Legal Challenge is artificially constructed to exclude paying for anything except what you already have in order to demonstrate that it is possible to learn a language, from scratch, for free, legally.

Yes, you could print out your course. No, you can't pay for even almost free instruction (unless a non-monetary swap, rdearman exception were involved). You're doing so well with your Korean right now. Please, Please Please, Don't change what you're doing to join= this challenge!!! Plus, I really intend this to be a challenge for people to start a new language for free, not to continue one they are already learning. Keep up your great work with your Korean! I'll be following you.

Thanks a lot, iguanamon!!! :D

I initially thought about doing the challenge with chinese, but being realistic, I know I don't have the time or energy to do that right now. Then I thought about a romance language, but that would still divide my focus and I usually don't get good results when my focus is divided. Then I remembered that what I'm currently doing with korean mostly fits within the boundaries of this challenge, so I thought that my best/only option for participating this time would be by doing it with korean. But you are right, I'm already enjoying my korean journey so much that it probably wouldn't be wise to force things in order to make them fit the challenge. So don't worry, I won't be participating in this challenge. I'll just follow the participants' journey with interest ;)

(And just a small correction: I'm not in Spain but in Latin America)
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Re: The Free and Legal Challenge- Discussion

Postby Xenops » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:42 pm

Here's a challenge: I might be interested in learning Manchu to a low level--but are there many free resources? There's this site:

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Manchu

and then there's the free-domain text of an old grammar at archive.org:

https://archive.org/details/cu31924023341112

Are there any free sources with audio? There's not that many sources with audio period, much less free and legal. I could do some researching on the related language Xibe. I'd have to see if there is a Manchurian Bible or not.

Edit:
A preliminary search proved that there are five words recorded on Forvo.com in Manchu, and exactly zero for Xibe. :lol: There are some basic Biblical recordings in Xibe, but I'll have to see if there are transcripts. http://globalrecordings.net/en/language/4943
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