Russian Through Reading -- Kenneth Brooke, James Forsyth

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Russian Through Reading -- Kenneth Brooke, James Forsyth

Postby Speakeasy » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:03 am

Russian Through Reading -- Kenneth Brooke, James Forsyth
New thread created so as to separate the discussion of "Russian Through Reading" by Kenneth Brooke and James Forsyth from the discussion of Nina Potapova’s series of books for the teaching of Russian.

aravinda wrote:
Seneca wrote:In the book, "Russian for through Reading" by Kenneth Brooke and James Forsyth...
Hello, Seneca. I know this question is not relevant to the topic of the thread but can you tell us a bit about this book, Russian Through Reading?


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Re: Russian Through Reading -- Kenneth Brooke, James Forsyth

Postby Speakeasy » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:18 am

I, too, am interested in receiving comments on "Russian Through Reading" by Kenneth Brooke and James Forsyth. Published in 1962 by E. P. Dutton, there is today little information on this book. Nevertheless, given the age of the book, I was surprised to find two fairly recent, but opposing, Customer Reviews of it on Amazon.co.uk.

(5 stars) Wonderful method for a bookworm - October, 2015
I love reading. Early on my desire to read forced me to carry a dictionary and constantly annoy my parents to build vocabulary. I also know a bit of Croatian, meaning the Slavic pronunciations are fairly familiar to me. That said this book is a perfect fit, plunging you into reading Russian with minimal build up. If you try and understand everything you're reading at first I'd imagine you'd probably fail. Once I knew all the letters and corresponding sounds I worked on vocabulary until I could start on actually making sense of the grammar around chapter 4, then went back and re-read the previous chapters with better understanding. Of the many methods I've used to learn other languages this has been my favourite. Be prepared to be made fun of for poor pronunciation however, as the book is strictly a reading course that helps lay groundwork for the spoken aspect of Russian.

(2 stars) good (but dated) reading selections, but impossible to learn from, in spite of the authors' claims - December, 2013
This book has the most preposterous pedagogical premise in the history of language instruction: That the best way to learn to read Russian is to simply dive right in and try to read advanced material from day one. Grammar? Don't worry, we'll explain all those pesky endings later. Pronunciation? It doesn't matter, just make up approximate sounds in your head. I know of no human being who would have even the remotest chance of learning to read Russian in this way. The grammar explanations, when they do eventually arrive, are so intertwined and convoluted that even I, who already know Russian, found them horribly confusing and overwhelming. Besides, the whole premise (which the authors explicitly argue) that the best way to learn to read a language is to not waste any time learning to speak and understand it is the complete reverse of the truth. In fact, the best way to learn any facet of a language is to simultaneously engage *all* of the brain functions involved in using the language. (You can't learn to throw a baseball if you disdain learning to catch a baseball!) The authors are clearly educated and know their stuff, but their pedagogical method is completely wrong. On the bright side, the reading selections (of which there are many) and very good (but dated to the Soviet period), and the accompanying discussions are interesting -- but only for a Russian student who is already learning the language via a good instructional textbook, which this is not.


EDITED:
Tinkering (OCD)
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Keys
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Re: Russian Through Reading -- Kenneth Brooke, James Forsyth

Postby Keys » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:41 am

You can see the contents of the book using Google Books.

It seems a more random version of Assimil Russian, i.e. Assimil adds example texts to their grammar sections, if you will, while this book Russian Through Reading book adds grammar to the texts, although I can't be sure if they don't have some kind of build up as well, since Google Books doesn't show whole chapters, just excerpts.

I find that negative reviews can often stem from personal antipathies with a method instead of a factual reviewing of that method. Even with 20 pages visible in Look inside mode, people buy the book and then burn it down for some reason. However in this case there's no Look inside mode.

From the Google Books examples I wouldn't be inclined to buy the book, taking into account the price and the texts used, which seem mostly non-fiction and a bit boring, but for those who find factual texts about dress code, greeting each other or cooking interesting or who are blessed with the love of reading non-fiction, it might be interesting. :P
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Re: Russian Through Reading -- Kenneth Brooke, James Forsyth

Postby Speakeasy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:54 am

Keys, thank you very much for your comments. I appreciate your perspective on negative reviews. In this case, albeit for entirely different reasons, there are now two sound justifications for giving this book a pass. Also, thank you very much for mentioning Google Books, that route had not occured to me.
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Re: Russian Through Reading -- Kenneth Brooke, James Forsyth

Postby aravinda » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:52 pm

Keys wrote:You can see the contents of the book using Google Books...
Thank you, Keys.
It seems I am not able to see the contents of the book. I think Google Books gives different levels of access to their scanned books based on where you are located. And this is not the first time I noticed it. :(
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Re: Russian Through Reading -- Kenneth Brooke, James Forsyth

Postby Seneca » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:08 pm

It took me a bit to respond because I have never studied Russian and wanted to be thorough to be as helpful as possible. Below is the first chapter to give you an idea of what you get. Please note there is also a transliteration that I did not bother to type out.

According to the introduction, you learn approximately 4500 words. I think this book is probably of more use now than it was when first published in 1962. One may have had no access to Russian audio or speakers then, so may have learned to read but had a horrific accent and understanding of proper pronunciation. In 2018 you can learn plenty of Russian pronunciation online for free.

Touching on the aspect of Keys noting it seems boring, I think it just matters what you are looking for. The foreword notes that the book is aiming to give you a view into Russian life and civilization to include social and political matters. Someone with an interest in life as a Soviet might find this particularly fascinating.

A few other things to note:
The readings get more complex, and interesting, as you go along.
The readings are split into sections and note, for example, when it is important to review, when they are cutting back on grammar explanations, etc...
There is a glossary, but it is only Russian to English, no English to Russian.
There is a very thorough index that notes every page referring to just about any grammatical topic that the book covers. ie, cases, aspect, etc..

If there is any specific thing that Russian learners or native speakers know to be challenging they'd like me to share as presented in the book, or at least note if it is touched on, let me know.

I guess the only question would be, has Russian changed much outside of vocabulary over the last ~55 years? I am under the impression it has been fairly stable in that period. Perhaps a student of the language, or one of the native speakers, could chime in.

01 КАРТА

Вот карта. Это карта СССР. Тут столица СССР, Москва. Это болшой, красивый город.
Вот Балтийское море. Здесь Ленинград и Финляндия. На севере город Архангельск.
Вот Украина. Столица Украины – Киев. Там степь, реки Днепр и Дон. Киев на Днепре.
На юге – Чёрное море, Крым и горы Кавказа. Город Одесса на Чёрном море.
Река Волга втекает в Каспийское море. На Волге города Горький, Сталинград и Астрахань.
На восток от Москвы Урал, и за Уралом – Сибирь. Там леса, сибирские горы, реки Обь, Енисей, Лена, и озеро Байкал.
На Дальнем Востоке Камчатка, остров Сахалин, большая река Амур, и город Владивосток. Там Тихий океан.
На юг от Урала – степь и пустыни Казахстана и Туркестана. Здесь города Ташкент и Самарканд, а за границей – Иран, Афганистан, Китай и Монголия.

The reader should now compare the Russian passage with the English translation which follows- Each passage with its translation will enable the reader to deduce various facts about the Russian language, although not all the possible deductions will be discussed in each lesson. We shall rather select a body of facts from each lesson in order to construct a picture of the language step by step, and certain matters in each lesson will be offered ‘on trust’ for discussions at a later stage. We hope, in this way, to avoid overwhelming the learner with too much material, and at the same time, to give real texts instead of the elementary sentences which other methods must employ.

Translation: The Map
Here is a map. It is a map of the USSR. Here is the capital of the USSR, Moscow. It is a large, beautiful town.
Here is the Baltic Sea. Here is Leningrad and Finland. In the north is the town Arkhangelsk. Here is the Ukraine. The capital of the Ukraine is Kiev. There are the steppe, the rivers Dnieper and Don. Kiev is on the Dnieper.
In the south is the Black Sea, the Crimea and the mountains of the Caucasus. The town of Odessa is on the Black Sea. The river Volga flows into the Caspian Sea. On the Volga are the towns Gorky, Stalingrad and Astrakhan.
To the east of Moscow is the Ural, and beyond the Ural, Siberia. There are forests, the Siberian mountains, the rivers Ob, Yenisei, Lena and Lake Baikal. In the Far East is Kamchatka, the island Sakhalin, the great river Amur, and the town Vladivostok. There is the Pacific Ocean. To the south from the Ural is the steppe and the deserts of Kazakhstan and Turkestan. Here are the cities Tashkent and Samarkand, and beyond the border, Iran, Afghanistan, China and Mongolia.

§1.1 Russian does not (normally) have words corresponding to our articles the, a, an.

§1.2 Russian does not (normally) have any word corresponding to our is, are.

§1.3 Various names of things (nouns in grammar) appear in more than one form: we have река Волга the river Volga, but реки Обь, Енисей, Лена the rivers Ob, Yenisei, Lena. Here the distinction is between singular and plural (note that пустыни deserts is also plural). Here is a fact of grammar: some plural nouns end in –и.

Our passage shows another kind of plural: compare город Архангельск the town Archangel with города Горький, Сталинград и Астрахань the towns Gorky, Stalingrad and Astrakhan – here is a second fact: some plural nouns ends in –а. We could show this with a simple grammatical table thus:

Singular –а (one type), No vowel (another type)
Plural –и (one type) –а (another type)

This is a very incomplete grammatical statement, but it is true as far as it goes; having learnt that реки means rivers we might have deduced correctly that пустыни was a plural word.

§1.4 Various names (nouns) appear in more than one form where it is clear from the translation that we are not dealing with a plural: compare Урал thе Ural, за Уралом beyond the Ural and от Урала from the Ural. As we grow accustomed to reading we shall come to expect after such words as на on (also in and to), за beyond, other forms of a noun than the one we find when that noun is simply the subject of a statement. We will save discussion of this for later lessons.

§1.5 The English word of also appears to be omitted. горы Кавказа and пустыни Казахстана translate the mountains of the Caucasus and the deserts of Kazakhstan. Let us note in passing that –а at the end of a Russian word often indicates the idea of of. This need not be confused with the –а which shows plural, because usually the context will make this matter clear.

Note that город Одесса is not an example of the ‚of‘ construction – it is a peculiarity of English to say the town of Odessa – an idiom – and we have not reproduced this idiom in our translation the town Odessa.

§1.6 It will be noticed that на is translated in different places by in, to, and on. We often find that words in other languages do not correspond exactly in sense to English words, they may have a wider or narrower range of meaning. This is particularly the case with such words which indicate position and relation, like на and за and в. These words, and the corresponding English words are called prepositions, because they are usually placed before nouns.

§1.7 There are slight differences of meaning between вот and здесь, both translated here but the former used particularly when pointing things out (вот may often mean there (is) also). тут and там (here and there) differ in similar fashion. и and а both mean and, but а normally directs attention to another, often contrasting center of interest while и merely marks an addition.

§1.8 The reader who makes careful comparisons of the Russian and the English version will have noted

Чёрное море beside на Чёрном море
болшой город beside большая река
на восток beside на Дальнем Востоке,

but he is asked to take these on trust for the present; we shall list similar features in each lesson and hold them in reserve for discussion later.

§1.9 СССР stands for Союз советских социалистических реепублик i.e. Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

Résumé:
First acquaintance with a piece of printed Russian. Certain English words not represented in the Russian sentence, 1.1, 1.2; variation in forms of Russian nouns to indicate plural, also after other words to indicate e.g. the idea of – these variations are called grammar inflexions 1.3-1.5; Russian word does not always have a one-word English equivalent, 1.6 or vice versa, 1.7.
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Speakeasy
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Re: Russian Through Reading -- Kenneth Brooke, James Forsyth

Postby Speakeasy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:35 pm

Seneca, I thank you immensely for the additional information and commentary!

In light of the accumulating information on this expensive, peculiar book, and despite the 2-star review on Amazon, which now seems to have provided very sound reasons not to purchase it, I feel increasingly drawn to it because of its quirkiness ...

temptation /tempˈteɪ.ʃən ; noun:
the wish to do or have something that you know you should not do or have
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aravinda
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Re: Russian Through Reading -- Kenneth Brooke, James Forsyth

Postby aravinda » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:57 pm

Seneca wrote:It took me a bit to respond because I have never studied Russian and wanted to be thorough to be as helpful as possible.
Thank you, Seneca, for taking the time to write such a helpful response. Your post convinced me that I should get the book provided I can find a good copy at a reasonable price. :D
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Re: Russian Through Reading -- Kenneth Brooke, James Forsyth

Postby aaleks » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:37 am

This:
Вот карта. Это карта СССР. Тут столица СССР, Москва. Это болшой, красивый город.
Вот Балтийское море. Здесь Ленинград* и Финляндия. На севере город Архангельск.
Вот Украина. Столица Украины – Киев. Там степь, реки Днепр и Дон. Киев на Днепре.
На юге – Чёрное море, Крым и горы Кавказа. Город Одесса на Чёрном море.
Река Волга втекает в Каспийское море. На Волге города Горький, Сталинград и Астрахань.
На восток от Москвы Урал, и за Уралом – Сибирь. Там леса, сибирские горы, реки Обь, Енисей, Лена, и озеро Байкал.
На Дальнем Востоке Камчатка, остров Сахалин, большая река Амур, и город Владивосток. Там Тихий океан.
На юг от Урала – степь и пустыни Казахстана и Туркестана. Здесь города Ташкент и Самарканд, а за границей – Иран, Афганистан, Китай и Монголия.

is written in an un-(non?)-russian way. This looks more like a literal translation from English.

*Ленинград - Санкт-Петербург,
Горький - Нижний Новогород,
Сталинград - Волгоград.
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Re: Russian Through Reading -- Kenneth Brooke, James Forsyth

Postby ilmari » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:48 pm

Review by: E. Koutaissoff
The Modern Language Review
Vol. 58, No. 3 (Jul., 1963), pp. 450-452

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