Lang-8 is such a disappointment

[rdearman]

I have successfully deleted two off-colour fruit and vegetable jokes and resisted writing a third. I think I might finally be growing up.

[stelingo]

I use lang8 quite frequently and was alarmed when I read it has suspended new registrations. After a quick Google search I came across a Learn Japanese website where they were discussing this topic. One of the users had emailed the Lang8 support and received this reply:

Dear User,
Thank you very much for using Lang-8.
Our system momentarily cannot registration for unidentified reasons and we are not going to close Lang-8. Therefore, we are sorry to inform you that we cannot specify the exact date when this issue will be solved. We will make an announcement on Lang-8.
Please let us apologize once more for any inconvenience this situation may have caused you.
Thank you for your kind understanding on this subject and we all appreciate your patience.
Best regards, Lang-8 staff
Based on the email the registrations being closed should only be temporary.

This reassured me somewhat, until I noticed it was published 4 months ago. I really hope the site doesn't die.

https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/5z0cn1/lang8_no_longer_accepting_new_accounts/

[Cainntear]

The second is getting an exchange partner. I cannot, my native language simply isn't popular among natives of my target languages, what a suprise. If it was that simple, I wouldn't need any Lang8, I would just get an exchange penpal and exchange mails and corrections.

A simple metaphor, as this still seems to be too abstract for the internet language learning community:
...

One day a market trader realised that exchanging small tokens would allow all the traders in the market to receive what they wanted, because each token could be exchanged for any type of fruit or vegetable.

Back in the early days of the internet, people used to talk excitedly about direct exchange and a return to "barter economics", and the economists blinked and said "but bartering is not efficient!" We don't have people explicitly talking about "bartering" now, but it's still a part of the mindset. Lang8 was different because it had its own "currency". There's a reason everyone uses money - the economists were right.

[Xenops]

For whatever reason, Lang8 isn't interested in continuing their services. Perhaps it's like the owner of HTLAL who lost interest and moved on with life. Maybe there's a copyright issue (I can see fans making people translate comics, for example). I think the best course now is to have someone make an alternative site. I don't think funding will be an issue, as we can rally people to support it. Maybe even a Kickstarter?

[Cavesa]

Rdearman, don't grow up. Not completely.

One day a market trader realised that exchanging small tokens would allow all the traders in the market to receive what they wanted, because each token could be exchanged for any type of fruit or vegetable.

Back in the early days of the internet, people used to talk excitedly about direct exchange and a return to "barter economics", and the economists blinked and said "but bartering is not efficient!" We don't have people explicitly talking about "bartering" now, but it's still a part of the mindset. Lang8 was different because it had its own "currency". There's a reason everyone uses money - the economists were right.

I am not saying the economists were wrong. I just think there is place for the alternatives, the barter economics, as a minority option. And the existence of all those exchange sites is a proof.

Yes, I can exchange the small pieces. But it is extremely unpleasant that while so many people are allowed to pay with their skills (and a skill they got without any special investment, just by chance), I am not. It is annoying to be punished for having been born to a wrong country in yet another way.

It is sad, that while others just look for exchange partners for free practice, I have to pay to just chat, as the only worthy thing I can offer is the money, nothing else, I am otherwise useless to the people. This injustice is not pleasant. Our ancestors were really stupid to revive Czech only to satisfy their useless and unfounded pride. As one of the thousands of small consequences (yeah, 20th century was a bigger consequence, true), I either have to put aside money in my student monthy budget for something as simple and basic as just talking, or to not have opportunity at all. (Heh, and on another thread, there was a nice note about how our opportunities to learn languages don't depend on money).

And that still wouldn't be that annoying. What IS annoying are all those naive bits of advice. All those people who simply assume it is so easy for everyone and some of us fail at this just for lack of trying. This advice, that just shows how much does the native language priviledge matter in education, and that we can never make up for the initial disadvantage, no matter what we do. It is not my fault I was born in a second rate country with language that is useful just as another piece of a collection. Language that often not even immigrants bother to learn. It is simply annoying to be inferior because of mistakes ancestors made 150 years ago.

It's more an issue of ignorance in such advice, not of my ignorance about economy. It's like not having hands and being advised to "just tie my shoes" a million times. No s..t Sherlock. I really never thought of that, I've always wanted to just complain about my shoelaces and keep falling on my face.

[Xenops]

Edited: the original post was stupid.

[aokoye]

Somewhat related to Cavesa's rant, is that in the U.S., so that it is "equal opportunity", a non-Caucasian candidate for a job will always be picked before the Caucasian candidate of the same qualifications. Thanks a lot, politicians of the past.

Um, no - that's not true at all. Like not at all. There are studies showing that that people who have "ethnic" last names, that is to say last names that aren't of European origins, get called back significantly less often than those with last names that are of European extraction (this is also the case in Canada, among other countries). Going further into that would run straight into discussing politics though so I'll stop there for now.

[Cainntear]

I am not saying the economists were wrong. I just think there is place for the alternatives, the barter economics, as a minority option. And the existence of all those exchange sites is a proof.

I think you might be falling into the same trap as the people who give you unhelpful advice.

Support for a barter system is driven by survivorship bias -- we hear lots from the people who benefit from the system, and less from those who suffer, with no regard to the proportion of "survivors" vs "victims". What the internet has done has increased the scale of things to the point where numbers of "survivors" are really high, even when the proportion of survivors is low -- 0.1% of a billion people is still a million people, so you can set up a viable business that doesn't meet the majority of your potential customers' needs.

But that doesn't mean it's a good business model, because you a) could have a bigger business if you had a fairer model; and b) an unbalanced system doesn't always work.
I gave up on exchange sites as a native English speaker, because there weren't enough native speakers on the sites so I was spending almost as much time turning down politely refusing new conversation partners as chatting. Most non-English speakers want to learn English first, and there will always be competition for English speakers as a scarce resource, and if it's the English speakers who suffer, your business model is going to struggle.

It is sad, that while others just look for exchange partners for free practice, I have to pay to just chat, as the only worthy thing I can offer is the money, nothing else, I am otherwise useless to the people.

Exactly -- and that's why the "sharing economy" works best when a site or service has a notion of "currency" that is internal. If you get site credit for doing something for someone else, and can use that credit to get help from another person, everybody can get what they want, lang-8 style. (Well, not quite. There's still the problem of languages with lots of learners and few teachers -- eg Scottish Gaelic: all native Gaelic speakers also speak English, and therefore few are motivated to learn foreign languages. There may have been one or two native Gaelic speakers on lang-8, but there will have been loads looking for it.)

(Heh, and on another thread, there was a nice note about how our opportunities to learn languages don't depend on money).

Which is a dangerous philosophy anyway. Once we start getting to the stage where people expect service X to be free, it's hard to make a living at it, which means you can't do it full time, which means you can't justify professional-level training and tools.

You're not going to buy an interactive whiteboard and hire a convenient, easy-to-access city-centre location to give free lessons, are you? And if you're not doing it five days a week, every week, you're not going to get as much practice, and you're not going to get as good.

I've lost count of the number of Gaelic learners who get all huffy when someone suggests paying for lessons or materials. "It's no wonder the language is dieing if all anyone can see is $$$. You should be encouraging people like me, not trying to make a profit off us."

The internet is making this worse, because things like Duolingo are devaluing teaching and self-access resources. But at the end of the day, the people trying to make money off "free" end up finding they aren't getting enough and change their model, and try to enter into a paid market they've already destroyed.

This advice, that just shows how much does the native language priviledge matter in education, and that we can never make up for the initial disadvantage, no matter what we do. It is not my fault I was born in a second rate country with language that is useful just as another piece of a collection. Language that often not even immigrants bother to learn. It is simply annoying to be inferior because of mistakes ancestors made 150 years ago.

Don't blame your country, don't blame your ancestors and don't blame your language. It is the system and the economy that's to blame. The internet was mostly dreamed up by English speakers. Internet language learning was mostly invented by English, French and German speakers. They took lazy shortcuts and buit philosophies that worked in the situations they new. They built systems that worked for majorities. Even as involvement expanded to eastern Europe and South America, typical lazy software design ignored the realities of language diversity to make a quick buck out of "accessible" languages, and many language learning websites can't offer Russian, Chinese or Japanese because they built their whole system around the Latin alphabet.

But that's poor design, not a mistake made by the Russians, the Chinese or the Japanese.

[Blue]

A simple metaphor, as this still seems to be too abstract for the internet language learning community... And truth be told, I am getting tired and annoyed of all those people giving the easy advice "just get an exchange partner, its simple, just don't be afraid to reach out and join an exchange site, you obviously haven't tried", who absolutely don't know what it is like outside of their bubble, no offence meant.

I feel like this post is a little rude. I wasn't even addressing you, just throwing out a suggestion for anyone trying to make lang-8 work. I was sharing a strategy which has worked for me, which I think is probably the best thing I can contribute to towards this forum. Obviously the same strategies won't apply to everyone. And I know damn well how the language exchange market works. You don't have to be a condescending prick about it. And I never accused you of never trying it.

[Cainntear]

A simple metaphor, as this still seems to be too abstract for the internet language learning community... And truth be told, I am getting tired and annoyed of all those people giving the easy advice "just get an exchange partner, its simple, just don't be afraid to reach out and join an exchange site, you obviously haven't tried", who absolutely don't know what it is like outside of their bubble, no offence meant.

I feel like this post is a little rude. I wasn't even addressing you, just throwing out a suggestion for anyone trying to make lang-8 work. I was sharing a strategy which has worked for me, which I think is probably the best thing I can contribute to towards this forum. Obviously the same strategies won't apply to everyone. And I know damn well how the language exchange market works. You don't have to be a condescending prick about it. And I never accused you of never trying it.

What's rude is taking a legitimate grievance so personally. Cavesa has a right to be annoyed, and getting shirty with her for being annoyed... well that's privilege.