scivola wrote:Serpent wrote:I'm not a fan of excessive drilling in general, but Assimil is a particularly bad choice for it in my opinion
If the words and expressions just won't stick, imo it's better to go through something like Michel Thomas, Pimsleur or whatever and go back to Assimil.
PeterMollenburg wrote:I think a more 'natural' approach, as I believe Serpent is also suggesting, is generally 'better'. In other words, don't SRS everything via Anki, just go through the course as instructed, and if things don't stick, maybe go through once or twice more and move on to other stuff.
In both of these quotes, y'all are assuming some level of repetition. Anki is simply a tool for systematizing that repetition.
For my part, I'm just a bit dubious of staring at electronic screens and being force-fed drills. It has to work to some extent, but something just feels unnatural about it. It's really difficult to put my finger on it, exactly what it is- perhaps with SRS, one thing lacking could be that we're almost not allowed to forget. Perhaps through repetition via more natural processes, be that writing down words/word lists, reading, re-doing exercises in courses such as Assimil, a more natural memory process takes place, in which sometimes we're allowed to forget. Perhaps it's the electronic screen itself. There's been at least one recent discussion on this forum with regards to reading from a paper copy book as opposed to reading electronically, and some argue that the latter is not as conducive to learning.
scivola wrote:What constitutes "excessive" drilling? You should move on to other stuff "if words and expressions don't stick". Are they supposed to stick after reading through the lesson just one time? If you don't use anki but you read through each lesson more than once, are you doing it wrong? And let's suppose you do just go through assimil the normal way and then move on to native materials. Presumably, anything from assimil that didn't stick will be encountered again later in those native materials. Is that a repetition, and if so, is that bad? If not, why is that better than having anki show you the non-stick word or phrase again?
I realised I worded things a little wrongly. I'm not against repetitions nor extra waves at all, I do them myself. I am an advocate for repetition, I'm just not convinced of drilling with Anki like there's no tomorrow being a great solution. It seems too one-dimensional and lacking some real human-ness, for want of a better word, as opposed to machine dictated, memory activities.
I think there's definitely something in 'internalising' content through repetition - say shadowing, reading, repeating exercises and the like. Whereas Anki (or another SRS program) telling me what to respond to and when, via an electronic screen, just feels less natural. I really have difficulty explaining this, as it's a unseen 'feeling', like intuition, i'm sorry if i'm not making sense.
As for those who choose to use Anki, like I did a lot in the past, go ahead be my guest, you're very likely to show that it works very well. For me, at least in my learning journey now, it just doesn't feel quite right.
scivola wrote:And when it comes to reading, people seem to accept that both intensive and extensive reading is necessary to "master" a language. Isn't the normal assimil method basically extensive, where you keep moving, not focusing too much on every detail in each lesson. So using anki would simply be an intensive way to go through the course, with anki's scheduling algorithm working to focus your attention on the parts/sentences that need the most attention. If a book can be read both intensively and extensively, why is it wrong to do that with an assimil book?
Yep, and I'm also believer in both intensive and extensive approaches to reading and study. And yes Anki reps, I agree, are a way to render the Assimil approach more intensive. I personally, methodically analyse the content, despite being advised not to, and look up words I don't know. I would enter sentences and phrases into Anki that were difficult or unusual, but only a few phrases per lesson perhaps. Which I no longer like doing. Now I'll write down unknown words or phrases occasionally, use repetition more and have more trust in naturally remembering things (admittedly through repetition also). So yes, Anki is another (arguably more efficient) way to render the process intensive, but it's no longer my preferred tool of choice, as I mentioned, it just feels unnatural. It also feels forced. I really struggle to explain what it is.
scivola wrote:I understand that some people just don't like anki, so I would understand some comments saying "I wouldn't enjoy studying assimil that way". But that's not what I'm seeing here. People seem to think it controversial to ankify assimil in particular. I don't understand why, especially when many people have spoken of the improvements they have achieved by using subs2srs to ankify movies and their subtitles.
I don't see why ankifying assimil would be any less effective (especially sense I've done it and thought it was pretty great).
If you're motivated to 'Ankify' Assimil, then it's likely to work rather well. If you're motivated not to Ankify Assimil, as I currently am, it's likely to work rather well. We all have our justifications. You can provide reasons i'm sure why it works for you, I can provide why I prefer not to use it, myself. Motivation is the really important ingredient in the end. Let's face it, if you can make it as far as I have using courses predominantly (which ironically many people argue are unnatural in their approach) despite advice to the contrary, then there's no problem if you choose to use what to me seems unnatural (Anki). Mind you i'm at a turning point, where my approach is changing, so maybe it's like my current self trying to speak to my beginner learner self. I wouldn't necessarily agree with myself either.