Assimil Active Wave

All about language programs, courses, websites and other learning resources
User avatar
Seneca
Green Belt
Posts: 268
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:08 pm
Location: Eurasia
Languages: English (N); 日本語 (beginner)
x 350

Assimil Active Wave

Postby Seneca » Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:32 pm

I have been studying Spanish with the newest version of the Assimil course:
Image

This is how I have been doing the passive wave:
1. Listen with the book closed.

2. Listen to the Spanish while reading the Spanish quietly along once through.

3. Listen, pause after each line/sentence, and read aloud.

4. Compare the sentence structures and translations.

5. Review the notes.

6. Listen x2; first reading the English and second the Spanish

7. Play the audio of the first exercises, pausing after each line, and repeating aloud. Then repeat the sentences while reading the English.

8. Do the fill-in-the-blanks. Cover the answer key with a notecard and check only after I guess.

9. Listen and read along out loud with the lesson once all the way through.

10. Read the end of lesson cultural note if there is one.


Then sometimes I just randomly review a lesson by listening to the audio and reading the Spanish out loud along with it and then check the vocab. Seems to be going alright since I usually remember everything on the Spanish side from looking at the English side if I do that first.

I still have a bit of time before the active wave, but it will arrive during a hiatus from the site (I am going on an extended trip and internet access will vary from spotty to non-existent.) Thus, I thought it good to figure out the game-plan now so I was not stalled when it arrived.

I guess my main question is, what is the actual point of the Active Wave?

Inside the front flap of the book:
"As you learn each new lesson, you will also review an earlier one, following our instructions, and translate the dialogue from English into Spanish. You'll be delighted at the results!"

From the introduction:
Basically the same as the front flap, but it says, "This time, however, instead of translating the first exercise in each lesson from Spanish into English, try to translate it the other direction; that is, from English to Spanish. This will consolidate your learning, as well as allow you to see how much you've progressed."

At the end of Lesson 50 (where the active wave begins):
Just explains how the book will tell you which lesson to go back and review, and adds, "But this time, after reviewing the lesson, you'll translate the English into Spanish instead of the other way around. Then read your Spanish translation out loud - don't be shy; speak loudly and articulate clearly. Go over the pronunciation as many times as you need to."

At the Language Geek site, someone wrote at the directions as they read in the Dutch course:

"1. Read the lesson, repeating each sentence once. If you have the recordings, listen to them carefully.
2. Cover the Dutch text and try to reconstruct it, looking only at the English sentences. Make an effort to do this both out loud and in writing. This is the most important part of the second wave!
3. After you are finished, uncover the Dutch text and carefully correct any errors you have made."

It strikes me as strange to not try the translation "cold," but perhaps the idea of listening to the audio first is to make sure I am choosing the "correct" thing to try to translate to since there are surely many ways to say a given phrase that I will learn. It seems the real key takeaway here is to write. Combining the above, I'd think the simplest way to make sure I cover the bases is to:

1. Write out my attempted translation of the first exercises from English to Spanish. Check and correct any written errors.

2. Listen to the main dialogue without looking at the book.

3. Listen again while reading the English.

4. Write out the Spanish from the English translation without looking at the Spanish. Check and correct any written errors.

5. Listen and read along with both the Spanish and English a couple times and then read aloud along with the Spanish.


What do you all think? Does that pretty fairly capture the spirit of the active wave? Too much? Too little? I don't want to overthink it, so just want to make sure I am getting the main gist. Interestingly, since I review the main dialogues and not the exercises vocab, that may prove trickier when it comes time for review!

Separately, that is not too labor intensive. Does anyone think there'd be a problem in reviewing two old lessons in a day if time permitted? I wouldn't want to do it the whole way since that'd mean the last week basically doing the active wave the next day. But maybe for the first ~35 days so I'd get to lesson 70 of the active wave while on lesson 85 of the passive. And then I'd just trail two weeks behind the active. It'd cut more than a month off the overall time to do the course. And the dialogues are longer at the end, so it might make more sense to have the review be a bit sooner. I welcome everyone's thoughts.
4 x

ilmari
Orange Belt
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:12 am
Languages: Fluent - French (N), English, Hebrew, Japanese.
Intermediate - Korean, Finnish, Spanish, Russian.
Studying (now) - Russian, Spanish
Dabbling - Italian, Polish, Yiddish, Mandarin Chinese, Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Urdu, Indonesian, Māori, Latin, Esperanto, Swahili
Would love to study - Norwegian, Swedish, Ancient Greek, and so many more.
x 461

Re: Assimil Active Wave

Postby ilmari » Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:35 am

It is not really an answer to your question, but if you could also find the previous edition of Assimil Spanish, the one entitled in French "le nouvel espagnol sans peine," and learn it in parallel, it would greatly reinforce what you are learning with the current edition. It may even allow you to skip altogether the second wave.

The previous book was written by the same author, but it is denser and more grammatically oriented than the more recent one. I personally find they both complement each other nicely.
0 x

User avatar
Brun Ugle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2273
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:48 pm
Location: Steinkjer, Norway
Languages: English (N), Norwegian (~C1/C2), Spanish (B1/B2), German (A2/B1?), Japanese (very rusty)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=11484
x 5821
Contact:

Re: Assimil Active Wave

Postby Brun Ugle » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:43 am

I've only used Assimil for German, not Spanish. For the active wave, I did the translations in the early lessons cold, but in the later lessons, the sentences were too complex to do it without a review of the audio. I also found in later lessons that it helped to do the lesson backwards. I'd listen to the audio once, redo the second exercise (fill in the blanks), do a backwards translation of the first exercise (look at the English and translate to German), listen to the audio once more and then translate the dialogue from English to German. I found it really tough at the time, but now, a few months after completing it, I find my German has taken a significant leap forward. So, it looks like the method really works.

As for rushing the active wave, I'm not sure that's a good idea. I think my brain needed that time to digest everything. Maybe if you aren't really a beginner in Spanish, but are just relearning it, it could work, but otherwise, I think the digestion time is probably important. Personally, I wouldn't mess with the system too much as it really does work. Instead of rushing through Assimil, I would probably just do something else on the side.
2 x

User avatar
reineke
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3570
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:34 pm
Languages: Fox (C4)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6979
x 6554

Re: Assimil Active Wave

Postby reineke » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:50 pm

Seneca wrote:
...I guess my main question is, what is the actual point of the Active Wave?

Inside the front flap of the book:
"As you learn each new lesson, you will also review an earlier one, following our instructions, and translate the dialogue from English into Spanish. You'll be delighted at the results!"

From the introduction:
Basically the same as the front flap, but it says, "This time, however, instead of translating the first exercise in each lesson from Spanish into English, try to translate it the other direction; that is, from English to Spanish. This will consolidate your learning, as well as allow you to see how much you've progressed."

At the end of Lesson 50 (where the active wave begins):
Just explains how the book will tell you which lesson to go back and review, and adds, "But this time, after reviewing the lesson, you'll translate the English into Spanish instead of the other way around. Then read your Spanish translation out loud - don't be shy; speak loudly and articulate clearly. Go over the pronunciation as many times as you need to."

At the Language Geek site, someone wrote at the directions as they read in the Dutch course:

"1. Read the lesson, repeating each sentence once. If you have the recordings, listen to them carefully.
2. Cover the Dutch text and try to reconstruct it, looking only at the English sentences. Make an effort to do this both out loud and in writing. This is the most important part of the second wave!
3. After you are finished, uncover the Dutch text and carefully correct any errors you have made."

It strikes me as strange to not try the translation "cold," but perhaps the idea of listening to the audio first is to make sure I am choosing the "correct" thing to try to translate to since there are surely many ways to say a given phrase that I will learn. It seems the real key takeaway here is to write.


From the Assimil website about

La phase active

"La phase active est déclenchée quand l'acquis passif est jugé suffisant, généralement vers la cinquantième leçon. Elle se déroule en parallèle avec votre étude passive quotidienne : vous reprenez la première leçon, puis la deuxième et ainsi de suite, à raison d'une leçon active et d'une leçon passive par jour. Cette phase active consiste tout simplement à masquer le texte de la langue cible et à le restituer oralement - et par écrit si désiré - à partir du texte français placé en regard.

...Dans cette deuxième phase, vous constatez que vous formulez des phrases facilement ; vous êtes encouragé à continuer et irez ainsi sans problème jusqu'au terme de votre étude. Le niveau final atteint, grâce à un cours "Sans Peine", est celui de la conversation courante. Vous avez alors une bonne maîtrise de la grammaire et un vocabulaire important (en moyenne 2 000 mots). Il est communément admis qu'un adulte maîtrise et utilise couramment environ 1 500 mots."

http://fr.assimil.com/la-methode-assimil

Writing is optional.
1 x

User avatar
mercutio
Orange Belt
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 4:55 pm
x 108

Re: Assimil Active Wave

Postby mercutio » Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:10 am

I once emailed Assimil as it's totally unclear which lets to translate and they said

"In the second wave (which starts with Lesson 50), you study the lesson the way you have studied all the previous lessons.

Then you go back to the lesson indicated at the end of the lesson (for example, lesson 1) and translate both the dialogue and exercise 1 from English into Spanish (as opposed to from Spanish to English).

We apologise for any confusion! Don't hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions."
2 x
: 5 / 5 language transfer total Spanish :
: 5 / 5 paul noble Spanish :
: 5 / 5 M. Thomas foundation and advanced spanish:
: 5 / 5 Duolingo Spanish :


www.thelanguagequest.com

User avatar
jeff_lindqvist
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3135
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:52 pm
Languages: sv, en
de, es
ga, eo
---
fi, yue, ro, tp, cy, kw, pt, sk
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2773
x 10462

Re: Assimil Active Wave

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:20 pm

Seneca wrote:I guess my main question is, what is the actual point of the Active Wave?


Well, to activate the language, of course. ;) Comprehension first, activity later. Many courses out there (including school teachers) use back-translating from L1 to L2 right from the start, while for instance AJATT doesn't:
•This does not involve looking at an English sentence and translating it into Japanese. Do not translate from English to Japanese. Why? Well, because there are so many possible translations for a given sentence, how are you going to say which is right and which is wrong


and:

(...)remember input precedes output. ALWAYS.


I think Luca Lampariello translates early on, and I've found it more helpful as well. Maybe not the same day, but a lot sooner than 50 days.

Seneca wrote:It'd cut more than a month off the overall time to do the course. And the dialogues are longer at the end, so it might make more sense to have the review be a bit sooner. I welcome everyone's thoughts.


I totally agree. Every time I've reached the active wave, I've found that only the first lessons "work". A few weeks later, I just have no idea how to translate into my L2. As you say, some texts are longer than others, and not all grammar concepts are all that easy to grasp.
2 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord

User avatar
Seneca
Green Belt
Posts: 268
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:08 pm
Location: Eurasia
Languages: English (N); 日本語 (beginner)
x 350

Re: Assimil Active Wave

Postby Seneca » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:36 am

mercutio wrote:I once emailed Assimil as it's totally unclear which lets to translate and they said

"In the second wave (which starts with Lesson 50), you study the lesson the way you have studied all the previous lessons.

Then you go back to the lesson indicated at the end of the lesson (for example, lesson 1) and translate both the dialogue and exercise 1 from English into Spanish (as opposed to from Spanish to English).

We apologise for any confusion! Don't hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions."

Interesting. I am only about 1/3 of the way through the passive wave, and it is already clear that translating like that above without the prompt of listening to the audio would be impossible for reasons listed by jeff_lindqvist. Perhaps Assimil never worried about developing the proper way to do an active wave because most people throw in the towel before then :lol: I mean, really, even amongst the community here and on the HTLAL site, which I'd guess is more likely to stick with languages than the average, and the completing rate must still be minuscule.
2 x

User avatar
jeff_lindqvist
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3135
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:52 pm
Languages: sv, en
de, es
ga, eo
---
fi, yue, ro, tp, cy, kw, pt, sk
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2773
x 10462

Re: Assimil Active Wave

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:42 am

I think most courses use the standard approach of a dialougue or two per lesson, a vocabulary list, some grammar points and maybe some exercises. Sometimes there are explanations how to use the material but generally, all courses look the same and are probably studied the same way. Assimil is one of the few study materials I have encountered that actually has a certain study method (i.e. the two waves), but that hasn't stopped people from adapting the content to their own preference(s). For instance, Arguelles has taken a multi-step approach with shadowing as a major activity. I don't know if there's a high dropout rate for Assimil courses. You could as well say that many actually do complete the courses, but in their own way.

Something I don't know, is whether the 50 lesson delay is optimal, whether it worked better in older courses, whether the progress could be faster (but still not forcing output) if the delay was shorter (30 lessons?). In order for a second wave to work at once - to automatically be able to translate back from L1 to L2 despite not having studied the actual lesson for ~50 days - there has to be a lot of repetition throughout the course. My favourite example is from the Chinese course. 裤子 (the Chinese word for trousers) is never repeated (except for the active wave, some 50 lessons later).
1 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord

ilmari
Orange Belt
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:12 am
Languages: Fluent - French (N), English, Hebrew, Japanese.
Intermediate - Korean, Finnish, Spanish, Russian.
Studying (now) - Russian, Spanish
Dabbling - Italian, Polish, Yiddish, Mandarin Chinese, Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Urdu, Indonesian, Māori, Latin, Esperanto, Swahili
Would love to study - Norwegian, Swedish, Ancient Greek, and so many more.
x 461

Re: Assimil Active Wave

Postby ilmari » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:45 pm

I am not a great fan of translations as a way of learning, but it also depends which language you are learning. Translating to Spanish (from French or English) can be useful. Translating to Japanese (except if your native language is Korean) is quite meaningless, there are too many elements involved.

As for Assimil, you can adapt it to your own taste. I think the principle of a second wave is good (revising can never be bad) but personally instead of translating the lesson, I prefer copying it, in a notebook or a computer document. It forces me to look into the details of the language, and I find I learn a lot this way. It is a bit like walking and driving through the same place. When you walk, you suddenly notice things you did not know were there.

Alternatively, you could also just skip the second wave, and move to a different book. After all, the principle of the second wave was devised by Alphonse Chérel (the creator of Assimil) in the 1920s, when there were much less learning materials available than today, and Assimil has kept the principle alive as a kind of trade mark. It would indeed be interesting to know how many people really complete that second wave.
4 x

User avatar
reineke
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3570
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:34 pm
Languages: Fox (C4)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6979
x 6554

Re: Assimil Active Wave

Postby reineke » Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:26 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:
Seneca wrote:I guess my main question is, what is the actual point of the Active Wave?


Well, to activate the language, of course. ;) Comprehension first, activity later. Many courses out there (including school teachers) use back-translating from L1 to L2 right from the start, while for instance AJATT doesn't:
•This does not involve looking at an English sentence and translating it into Japanese. Do not translate from English to Japanese. Why? Well, because there are so many possible translations for a given sentence, how are you going to say which is right and which is wrong


and:

(...)remember input precedes output. ALWAYS.


I think Luca Lampariello translates early on, and I've found it more helpful as well. Maybe not the same day, but a lot sooner than 50 days.

Seneca wrote:It'd cut more than a month off the overall time to do the course. And the dialogues are longer at the end, so it might make more sense to have the review be a bit sooner. I welcome everyone's thoughts.


I totally agree. Every time I've reached the active wave, I've found that only the first lessons "work". A few weeks later, I just have no idea how to translate into my L2. As you say, some texts are longer than others, and not all grammar concepts are all that easy to grasp.


I think you're all getting hung up, and bogged down by the word "translation". The point of the exercise is to help the learner acquire active language skills. The so-called translation should lead to an "a-ha" effect with language learners once they're able to actively recall and reproduce previously covered material. I think the wording was chosen to steer people away from rote memorization.

The "Do not translate" advice is applicable outside of language courses. I believe that Luca "translates" Assimil first into L1 and then into L2.
5 x


Return to “Language Programs and Resources”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kraut and 2 guests