Sites/Apps like Readlang, Lingq, Lingua.ly, etc.

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Xmmm
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Re: Sites/Apps like Readlang, Lingq, Lingua.ly, etc.

Postby Xmmm » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:52 am

Hi Cavesa,

Thanks for your courteous reply.

What I think you are saying is that at your level in your target languages, LingQ doesn't make sense because you need to consume entire books and don't need the audio. That's great. I would put you in the category of "I don't need it because it doesn't match my style", which I'm sure is true for more than half the people.

But there are people out there -- and I was one of them a year ago -- who want to learn some language that for whatever reason is difficult for them, and want to do LR. Maybe they are monolingual North American adult learners. They need audio, they need libraries of short, graded texts, and they need metrics to track progress. At least in the first year or two. For that group of people, LingQ is a unique product and a bargain at $10. That's really all I'm trying to say.

If last year I had gone from Assimil to 10,000 ANKI cards or FSI FAST or a stack of grammar books, I would have quit for sure. So the $120 I paid over the last year was the difference between success and failure.
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Re: Sites/Apps like Readlang, Lingq, Lingua.ly, etc.

Postby Cavesa » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:39 am

Thanks to you for interesting discussion

This doesn't have anything to do with level. I've just completed an online placement test that put me to B1 German. I'd say it is a weak B1. I suppose LingQ has tons of graded articles of B1 German. But I would probably die of boredom and I would't profit from all the effects of longer texts. I 've started reading the Song of Ice and Fire in German on Readlang and it is not easy but great. Despite the fact it would probably not be labeled "B1" by anyone.

Yes, it is about the style. Which is why your post seemed a bit too angry to me. You were in a defensive, while all we had been discussing was suitability of LingQ for various styles of learners, and the fact that it is not worth the money for many people. And the fact there are several competitors trying to get customers from the same pool and LingQ simply isn't the clear and unshakeable number 1, despite trying hard to look like it.
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Re: Sites/Apps like Readlang, Lingq, Lingua.ly, etc.

Postby Xmmm » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:11 pm

Hi Cavesa,

There is an anti-LingQ bias here that drives me a little nuts.

Here is how I'd summarize the three apps. Please correct anything you think is wrong as I've only used Readlang for about 30 minutes test driving it and have not installed LWT because I don't install servers on my laptop as a matter of principle.


LingQ

pros: lots of metrics, extensive, graded libraries (including audio) for most supported languages, phone app that works well.

cons: $10 a month. The 'avatar' thing and the recent UI makeover are a bit silly. Lots of minor, sideline features (flashcards, tutors, etc.) that aren't useful or could be obtained in a better form elsewhere.


Readlang

pros: supports more languages than LingQ. Free and/or cheaper than LingQ.

cons: no metrics, no audio (obviously one could listen to audio in a separate app and read in parallel, but it's on you to find the audio for what you're reading), no phone app


LWT

pros: free

cons: no metrics, no audio, no phone app. time consuming to install and maintain. Potential security risks that aren't present in the two competitors.


If I were learning Estonian or Basque, I would use Readlang for sure. As it is, I'm learning Russian and Italian so LingQ is the clear winner and $10 a month is a bargain.

I've also had no problem uploading large novels to LingQ. Well, one minor problem in that LingQ will automatically break it into 2000 word chunks but I can live with that.
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Re: Sites/Apps like Readlang, Lingq, Lingua.ly, etc.

Postby Cainntear » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:37 pm

Xmmm wrote:Hi Cavesa,

There is an anti-LingQ bias here that drives me a little nuts.

No, there are several people that don't like LingQ, and you just happened to quote one of the most vocal and us -- me.

To call me cantankerous or overopinionated would be fine, but it's not a bias -- it's a considered opinion, and I give reasons for that opinion.

As I said, whatever the development and hosting costs, the real value in LingQ comes from the library of materials, most of which is user submissions.

I believe that anyone who charges money to mediate the exchange of voluntary free material between individuals has to add value, and I personally don't feel that LingQ (the commercial entity) adds enough value to LingQ (the website) to justify the price.

In particular, as Cavesa also points out, LingQ doesn't suggest new material -- it forces you to choose based on a single dimensional figure: number of new words. A site like that could track so much more, including using an SRS-style "memory schedule" to ensure sufficient repetition of newly-learned words. It doesn't.

And that's what I mean about lack of ongoing development -- there is a whole range of things it doesn't do, but they haven't done anything to reduce that list since they first released: it is still the same product, with just a few cos,etic changes.
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Re: Sites/Apps like Readlang, Lingq, Lingua.ly, etc.

Postby Cavesa » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:50 pm

No metrics and no audio doesn't need to be a con. But it is true Lingq is the only one of the 3 with an app (usable offline, I suppose). I cannot use Readlang in public transport.

I think there actually is something like "metrics" in Readlang. You know how many % of a book you've read. The SRS probably inludes some metrics, I have been using Readlang for a too short time to really know. I'll post in this thread, when I know.

I think LingQ is receiving such a reaction due to the too arrogant marketing. I simply expect something very different from a tool trying to convince me it is the only thing I'll ever need to learn a language. All those "cute" stories about the creator recommending a beginning learner to get rid of all those boring and confusing coursebooks and just use LingQ, and other such stuff. And there was (perhaps still is) an issue with paid services being accessible for providing services to learners of your native language. As a native of an unpopular language, I feel at an unfair disadvantage every time I encounter this and it disgusts me.

The lack of improvement Caintear mentions is also an issue. For 10 dollars per month, I would expect quite frequent updates with useful functions, adding things users want, adding more content, more languages. LingQ has been around long enough to include at least some smaller languages too. But has there been such a progress during the last few years? Last time I checked, it didn't seem so. Either make a product and sell it for one time payment as it is. Or sell a service for a monthly fee, but continue working on it and earn the new and new payments.

So far, my greatest complaint about Readlang has been the ugly green colour reminding me of hospitals (it is the most common shade of operating theatre clothes for people who don't touch the patient). :-D Which is not a bad result.
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Re: Sites/Apps like Readlang, Lingq, Lingua.ly, etc.

Postby Stefan » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:08 pm

Xmmm wrote:LWT

pros: free

cons: no metrics, no audio, no phone app. time consuming to install and maintain. Potential security risks that aren't present in the two competitors.

I hate to be overly pro LWT because it's not without issues but I'm questioning your cons.

cons:

You've got stats for added words, known words, words per text, known words per text, learned words per day/week/month/total. Probably even more. Not sure what kind of measurements you're lacking to put it on cons?

There's support for audio if you want to use it?

No phone app. This is honestly my biggest issue considering my laptop broke and I've only got an iPad now. LWT is made for the browser so it works exactly as it does on your computer but I find it a bit clunky to work with considering I lack a keyboard. I'm not sure how other sites solves this? Edit: apparently there's a dedicated phone view.

Time consuming? It probably took me a few minutes to set up and once you have, it will work exactly as it does until you update the software to make it incompatible or a dictionary decides to change their API. With that said, it depends completely on your computer knowledge and might be an issue for people.

pros:

It's free.

You own the data. In theory you can store a computer for 100 years, pick it up and continue with your current database. Altavista is dead. GeoCities is dead. Myspace is sort of dead. Every known service will be gone or changed in x years.

It's open source. Not only can the community continue to develop the source long after the creator is gone but you can also make changes yourself. I wrote a script that incorporates Google Translate as API. I also wrote a script that automatically imports texts just by visiting a link.

Security issue. It's a pro and con built into one. You're saying that LWT is open for potential security risks. I'm saying that I can view the source code and put a lock on the whole domain or maybe even avoid making it accessible online. At the same time, I have no idea if there's a LingQ leak already published with everyones information. Yahoo recently admitted that they leaked 1 billion accounts.




With this said, there's little ongoing development and no one is paying a monthly fee to support it. At the same time, it's doubtful if it would be enough anyway - just look at Readlang. If you know nothing about programming, you can always save up your "monthly fee" and pay a freelancer to develop the functions you're missing.
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Re: Sites/Apps like Readlang, Lingq, Lingua.ly, etc.

Postby rdearman » Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:41 pm

Actually I installed LWT on a machine with access to the internet, and you can use it on a phone, you just go to the website. :)
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Re: Sites/Apps like Readlang, Lingq, Lingua.ly, etc.

Postby smallwhite » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:11 pm

ロータス wrote:Things I dont like:
  • This 'turn the page and every words get changed to known' (maybe I just want to turn the page to see how long the lesson is?...)


Found this from their forum but I haven't tried it yet because I've switched to the old interface altogether.

"As you page

your lessons

all blue words

remaining on

each page

become

known. (Note:

This function

can be turned

off in the

lesson

settings.)"
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Re: Sites/Apps like Readlang, Lingq, Lingua.ly, etc.

Postby Stefan » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:07 am

BliuBliu seems to have a handful of mentions on the forum but not in this thread.



There are limitations with 10 own texts and time spent reading so most people probably have to pay the monthly fee. It's possible to upload books (epub, pdf, mobi, txt, docx) and they offer several books in public domain such as Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. They claim that a mobile app and browser extension will be developed so you can read on any site and on the go.

Their main issue is the use of Google Translate. It's amazing but really should be used together with other alternatives. Yesterday it tried to translate Gedenkgottesdienst to food service instead of something like commemoration or memorial service. By using multiple dictionaries it wasn't an issue but if you're using BliuBliu, you seem to be stuck with the Google Translate version even when you know it's wrong. I believe a site like this would benefit from using crowdsourced translations where all paying members can add and vote for suggestions and then a selected few go through and decide which ones to use. Regular users can then have a setting for which one to show as standard and show the other one when pressing a button. Some kind of system to correct errors.
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Re: Sites/Apps like Readlang, Lingq, Lingua.ly, etc.

Postby Serpent » Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:10 pm

I'm also not a fan of beginner coursebooks, and I love LR. (as described by siomotteikiru - not tiny texts but entire books!) I don't use LingQ for the same reasons as what Cavesa mentions, plus Kaufmann's complicated history with old HTLAL (this was discussed earlier in this thread).
There's no audio but I can simply login to Facebook or Twitter and get those short texts in my target languages :D

I tried out bliu bliu and liked it, but I hated how they were sending emails like "Why have you stopped learning Spanish?" which is patronizing and very ironic given that their Spanish materials were too basic for me.

GLOSS can be used as a pretty similar tool, apart from not having a popup dictionary. It does have parallel texts and audio, and also some fun exercises (not a small feat to be fun enough for me).
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