Language Transfer

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Re: Language Transfer

Postby Random Review » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:08 am

Cainntear wrote: Exactly. As a teacher, I'll say that what gets me most annoyed and frustrated is knowing that it's my fault; knowing that I've missed an important step; knowing that I've failed my students and not knowing how I've done it or how to fix it. And yes, when I don't control my expression, it does look to my students like I'm angry with them, and it's something I'm always trying not to do.

I do think that even teachers who openly blame students recognise on some level that it's their fault, and the blaming of the students is just a mechanism to protect their own self-image.


I 100% agree with this and can relate to it personally.

Cainntear wrote:Does every user subscribe to his newsletter or watch all of his videos? No.


True, mate. I don't disagree, I do think it is a mistake Mihali has made; but remember that I was replying to an accusation that this was a "strike" against his integrity when I think it is clear that he is not deliberately hiding anything. That's all I was arguing.

Cainntear wrote: And yet Mihalis's defence of his weaknesses is that he's actively chosen not to be a professional.


Gosh, I didn't really want to criticise Mihali, because I believe that on this thread he has been getting far, far more criticism than he deserves and I would also say that I think he's psychologically more together than I am. But since you insist on this point, I will explain that I think that when he is socially isolated (which until recently was much of the time due to the financial constraints caused by his seriously undervaluing his time), he does have a tendency to play "poor me". He had a fabulously professional approach and moaned about how amateur he was; he didn't (until last month) open it up to people helping him and then moaned about having to do it all himself, he seriously undervalued his time and then moaned about not having any money- he's a very good teacher and could easily make a comfortable living in the big European cities he loves with private classes. God knows that's what I would be doing if I had his talent.

I love Mihali and I certainly don't feel as ungrateful as that above sounds. I think he is a wonderful person.

There are things he can legitimately be criticised for (and you, Cavesa and others have had some nice little debates on these points in the past); but they are mostly not the things he has been getting criticised for on this thread recently. The last month or so the criticism on here has been very unfair.

romeo.alpha wrote: As Random Review says, that's actually the core of what MT did.


Lavengro concurs. I've been mulling this over, because I've been quite surprised by some of the criticism of Thomas and Mihali this past month or so, and I think when you do something very different, I guess you just attract a lot of criticism from people who don't understand what you are trying to do. I've said it before, but I think the analogy is a good one: I think a lot of people on here are looking at a cat and thinking "what a terrible dog".
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby romeo.alpha » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:36 am

lavengro wrote:
romeo.alpha wrote:
Cainntear wrote:As Random Review says, that's actually the core of what MT did.


If that's the core of what he did, don't you think it would be immediately apparent in going through his course?

I don't know what you may intend by "immediately" but it was clearly apparent to me that this is exactly what he was doing, and was what distinguished his learning materials from other materials.

Just for context, which of the actual Michel Thomas (rather than MTM) materials have you worked through?


I've gone through Dutch completely. I started French and backed out when I realised Michel lacked integrity, which was strike two after realizing his accent was crap. I also started Arabic and backed out on realizing Jane's accent was terrible, and when Mahmoud started going into more in depth explanations she would cut him off. I also took a brief look into German after hearing the claim that his accent in German was actually good - some people were even saying he was a native speaker. I confirmed his accent was very good, but he's not a native speaker, but my German was well above the level Michel Thomas is focused on.

Before Michel even gets started teaching, the first thing he says is that you already know how to speak French, even suggesting that English is nothing but French with a bad accent. His idea from the very beginning was that you could take your knowledge of English vocabulary and just change the pronunciation and be speaking French, with the addition of a few new words. Essentially, he's treating French as if it were a dialect of English. The first time the Dutch course even touched on that was the end of CD 2, which is one of the things that made it actually good (in addition to being taught by native speakers, so at least you have the teacher with a good accent).
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby romeo.alpha » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:46 am

Random Review wrote: I've been mulling this over, because I've been quite surprised by some of the criticism of Thomas and Mihali this past month or so, and I think when you do something very different, I guess you just attract a lot of criticism from people who don't understand what you are trying to do. I've said it before, but I think the analogy is a good one: I think a lot of people on here are looking at a cat and thinking "what a terrible dog".


I think you're being disingenuous here. The criticism of Mihalis has been very clearly centered around his new courses. They clearly understand what he's trying to do, and appreciate it when he does it well. It's when he completely screws it up that he gets flak, and deservedly so.

As for criticism of Thomas, if you're going to teach a course with a bad accent, and relying on knowledge of the spelling of English and the target language, why do it audio only, when a book will be much more suited (Madrigal's Magical Key). If you want the benefit of being accompanied by another learner, you don't need two. Having a man and a woman speak is only beneficial if they're native speakers and serving as an example of how to speak. With only one student you avoid the problem of students having different learning ability, and one of them grasping it much faster than the other (if your confidence is already very low, it's not going to help to see one of your "classmates" struggling, and either singled out for constant correction or just ignored). And then there's the fact that starting with cognates is a terrible idea. Once you have a solid grasp of the language, make use of the cognates to quickly expand your vocabulary. But right off the bat you want to avoid them as much as possible, gradually introducing some false friends and clearly explaining what the difference in meaning is, so that if you get the idea by yourself that you can just say an English word with a French accent, you're already aware of the situations you really shouldn't be doing that.

I know what Michel is trying to do. He has a bad premise for a lesson, he's not a good teacher, and aside from German he's not even a good speaker of the languages he's teaching. (That criticism could possibly be leveled at Paul Noble as well, but at least he has native speakers, which is an implicit acknowledgement of his own limitations).
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby rdearman » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:23 pm

Please feel free to critic courses but let's not slate the people creating the course. Living or dead. They have worked to benefit others and themselves and we should judge the results but not the person.
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby romeo.alpha » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:53 pm

rdearman wrote:Please feel free to critic courses but let's not slate the people creating the course. Living or dead. They have worked to benefit others and themselves and we should judge the results but not the person.


Where do you draw the line? Is Mihalis failing to disclose that he doesn't speak French at the beginning of the Introduction to French course a criticism of him (lie by omission) or is it a criticism of the course (doesn't adequately inform prospective learners)? Is Michel getting annoyed at his student in the first lesson in a language she has no prior knowledge of a criticism of him (lack of patience, forgetting his own promise to the student almost right away) or is it a criticism of the course and lesson plan (less than a minute in and it doesn't work as Michel had expected or promised).

Is Mihalis releasing courses in languages he doesn't speak a criticism of him (arrogance of thinking you can teach something you don't know yourself) or is it a criticism of the courses (they're low quality, that he tried to to teach them without knowing the language goes a long way to explain why they're low quality). Is Michel's previous claim that he was born in France (most recently he said Poland, which strikes me as far more plausible) a criticism of him (he's lying about where he's from) or is it a criticism of the course (his accent is not that of a native speaker, which one would be led to believe working under the assumption that he was born in France, so the course fails to deliver what someone not doing heavy research into could reasonably expect).

Is saying Jane has a terrible Arabic accent a criticism of her, or is it a warning about the quality of the course, that she isn't to serve as a template of how to speak the language, and her corrections are of dubious value at best?

It's hard to disconnect criticism of a course from criticism of people who drafted the content, and who taught it. If I say something is a stupid idea, it's implicit that the person who came up with the idea was on some level stupid. If I say teaching beginner level French through cognates is a bad idea, that reflects on the people who came up with the idea. Of course there it ends up a criticism of Margarita Madrigal as much as Michel Thomas. Is it then not a criticism of the person if it could apply to multiple people and this just happens to be an example? If that's the case, what if the particular teacher or author is the only person who did come up with a particular bad idea?
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby zenmonkey » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:27 pm

romeo.alpha wrote:
rdearman wrote:Please feel free to critic courses but let's not slate the people creating the course. Living or dead. They have worked to benefit others and themselves and we should judge the results but not the person.


Where do you draw the line?


If you can't figure it out, don't talk about the person's qualities, failings or abilities.
The reason for this isn't just "be nice" but attacks on a person place the site at risk. You are doing a disservice to the site community if your posts carry a risk of libel.
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby romeo.alpha » Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:29 pm

zenmonkey wrote:If you can't figure it out, don't talk about the person's qualities, failings or abilities.
The reason for this isn't just "be nice" but attacks on a person place the site at risk. You are doing a disservice to the site community if your posts carry a risk of libel.


Qualities, failings and abilities are absolutely relevant when discussing a course. How well they speak a language, and particularly how poorly is important information for someone deciding if they want to spend their time and/or money on the course.

I for instance don't want to spend my time on an audio course where the teacher has a bad accent. It means they can't teach me a good accent. I really don't want to spend my time on a course made by someone who doesn't speak the language at all. That's the blind leading the blind.
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby Cainntear » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:10 pm

romeo.alpha wrote:Qualities, failings and abilities are absolutely relevant when discussing a course.
But there's a difference between saying that someone doesn't live up to their ideals and saying that they "lack integrity". One is a judgement of the person's actions, the other is a judgement of the person.
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby lavengro » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:41 pm

romeo.alpha wrote:
lavengro wrote:
romeo.alpha wrote:
Cainntear wrote:As Random Review says, that's actually the core of what MT did.


If that's the core of what he did, don't you think it would be immediately apparent in going through his course?

I don't know what you may intend by "immediately" but it was clearly apparent to me that this is exactly what he was doing, and was what distinguished his learning materials from other materials.

Just for context, which of the actual Michel Thomas (rather than MTM) materials have you worked through?


I've gone through Dutch completely. I started French and backed out when I realised Michel lacked integrity, which was strike two after realizing his accent was crap. I also started Arabic and backed out on realizing Jane's accent was terrible, and when Mahmoud started going into more in depth explanations she would cut him off. I also took a brief look into German after hearing the claim that his accent in German was actually good - some people were even saying he was a native speaker. I confirmed his accent was very good, but he's not a native speaker, but my German was well above the level Michel Thomas is focused on. ...


thanks romeo.alpha, this is indeed useful for context.

If I understand correctly from your comments, you have not actually worked through any learning materials involving Michel Thomas himself (I don't believe the Dutch course does, but by all means let me know if that is incorrect). You indicated you started the French course but backed out for reasons of his accent and your perception of his lack of integrity, and German because it was below your level.

Yet you confidently state as a matter of fact rather than your opinion, that Michel Thomas was not a good teacher.

There is a diversity of opinions, positive and negative, concerning Michel Thomas, but most of those who express strong opinions have actually engaged significantly with his (rather than MTM) courses. I respect people's opinions, but I quietly measure how much stock I put in those opinions by how well qualified that person may be to arrive at an opinion. With respect, someone who does not have much actual experience of Michel Thomas is entitled I guess to have an opinion as to whether they would have found him to be a good teacher or not (ie. if they had gone through his stuff), but others are equally entitled to question whether that opinion is well-supported.

romeo.alpha wrote: ...
Before Michel even gets started teaching, the first thing he says is that you already know how to speak French, even suggesting that English is nothing but French with a bad accent. His idea from the very beginning was that you could take your knowledge of English vocabulary and just change the pronunciation and be speaking French, with the addition of a few new words. Essentially, he's treating French as if it were a dialect of English. The first time the Dutch course even touched on that was the end of CD 2, which is one of the things that made it actually good (in addition to being taught by native speakers, so at least you have the teacher with a good accent).


I recall this from the French course. He does something similar with Spanish and Italian. I can't remember if he also took that approach with German. I recall it being empowering to learn that there was an easy on-ramp to vocabulary in a new-to-me language, based on the wretched vocabulary I had already acquired in English. With respect, from my recollection, I do not think your following comments are fair, at all: "His idea from the very beginning was that you could take your knowledge of English vocabulary and just change the pronunciation and be speaking French, with the addition of a few new words. Essentially, he's treating French as if it were a dialect of English."

I do recall him making some jokes along those lines. At least I assume they were jokes; it is difficult for me to say definitely because, sadly, I do not have a sense of humour. I of course have no idea whether you also share my affliction, but I am pretty sure he did not say what you suggest he said or intended, and that what he did say was in the nature of a joke, similar to the following:

"Mr. Thomas based his method on the commonality of Western languages.
He "starts out by reminding the student that French and English have some 7,000 cognates--shared words that are pronounced differently. All that remains is to learn how to say the words properly," said an article in Contemporary Newsmakers.
"English is French, badly pronounced," he once joked to the New York Daily News."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2005-01-13-0501130225-story.html

While I don't have a sense of humour, I do have my copy of his French course, and may check out what he did say if that is of assistance, if I can squeeze it in between Fantaman! and the peppy pigs episodes.
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby zenmonkey » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:54 pm

romeo.alpha wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:If you can't figure it out, don't talk about the person's qualities, failings or abilities.
The reason for this isn't just "be nice" but attacks on a person place the site at risk. You are doing a disservice to the site community if your posts carry a risk of libel.


Qualities, failings and abilities are absolutely relevant when discussing a course. How well they speak a language, and particularly how poorly is important information for someone deciding if they want to spend their time and/or money on the course.

I for instance don't want to spend my time on an audio course where the teacher has a bad accent. It means they can't teach me a good accent. I really don't want to spend my time on a course made by someone who doesn't speak the language at all. That's the blind leading the blind.


If the accent used in the course is not native, then you can certainly state that without going into why you think xxx is a thief, a liar and doesn't wash behind the ears.

I think you can certainly express why you feel a course can or can't teach you an accent or why you would or wouldn't use a course without going into personal details. Why is this so hard?

Personally, I wouldn't give my opinion MTs or LTs French course because I haven't used it. I already speak French and I don't need them - I have listened to them very briefly and for both I've noted that, yes, the teacher does not have a native accent but does spend time working on enunciation. I did spend extensive time with MT German and found it useful.

I've used material with poor accent such as an Icelandic course developed by an English native, and even atrocious accents such as college professor for an advanced Spanish Literature class that spoke rather poorly and a Nahuatl teacher that was from Spain. In each case, despite some of the failings I found them useful. They might not be your cup of tea. This forum wouldn't be the place to discuss the "integrity" of the person in each case.

Heck, part of my current study material has no sound...
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