Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

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thevagrant88
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby thevagrant88 » Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:58 pm

kanewai wrote:
RyanSmallwood wrote:In my experience, one of the issues with Assimil (and a lot of these old standardized book and CD methods), is that they all share the same design regardless of the distance between languages. So it may work for languages with a lot of shared vocabulary like the original French ---> English course, but I find with more distant languages the process is unnecessarily slow.
This frustrates me across the board, and with almost every popular language program.


I hear this said a lot and I'm going to be the one person to put myself out there and say that I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I think the method of Assimil isn't the issue, but rather the courses themselves. The Linguaphone courses for Arabic, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, and I assume others are almost universally praised while implementing basically the same method. Adopting the Assimil method for 'Shadowing Japanese' has transformed my Japanese learning; it's absolutely fantastic. I've not tried it myself, but the Hungarian Assimil course is supposedly one of the better courses available to English speakers out of the entire catalog and the language structure doesn't get much more different than that!

The problem with the Asian/Distant language Assimil courses is simply because those particular courses are much weaker. That's it. Working through the 'Arabe sin Esfuerzo' course now I can tell you 100% that it's not the Arabic language that's the problem, but the recordings and dialogs the feel like they were made assuming that absolute worst of the learner. Slow, exaggerated recordings and single-sentence lessons make me feel like the author just thought my poor little brain couldn't possibly handle it. It's gotten better, but I really had to push through those excruciating opening lessons.

So yeah, I'll stand my ground and die on this hill if I have to :lol:
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby RyanSmallwood » Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:09 pm

thevagrant88 wrote:
kanewai wrote:
RyanSmallwood wrote:In my experience, one of the issues with Assimil (and a lot of these old standardized book and CD methods), is that they all share the same design regardless of the distance between languages. So it may work for languages with a lot of shared vocabulary like the original French ---> English course, but I find with more distant languages the process is unnecessarily slow.
This frustrates me across the board, and with almost every popular language program.


I hear this said a lot and I'm going to be the one person to put myself out there and say that I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I think the method of Assimil isn't the issue, but rather the courses themselves. The Linguaphone courses for Arabic, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, and I assume others are almost universally praised while implementing basically the same method. Adopting the Assimil method for 'Shadowing Japanese' has transformed my Japanese learning; it's absolutely fantastic. I've not tried it myself, but the Hungarian Assimil course is supposedly one of the better courses available to English speakers out of the entire catalog and the language structure doesn't get much more different than that!


Well personally I wasn't taking issue with the method Assimil uses, but the content and design of courses, which is very important. When I look for more extensive resources I often reformat them to be more like Assimil, because the parallel text and audio format is great. The key for me is just finding more extensive content that introduces things gradually and illustrates things in many context, which I find makes learning much faster and easier.

I have experience with their Hungarian course year backs, and I remember it working well in the beginning, but then by ~lesson 20 there was a bunch of complicated grammar dropped on me at once in addition to new vocabulary and it took a lot of work and repetition to internalize. When I then tried FSI, each grammar point was introduced gradually and illustrated many times, and I remember how much easier everything seemed to click intuitively for me. Of course it was nice to have Assimil too, as they had jokes and nice songs, but I definitely haven't enjoyed using Assimil as my first course for a distant language without some supplements. (And again as I mentioned previously, I removed the gaps in FSI to make it a more assimil-like absorption course, I think doing just drills as originally designed would also be frustrating, but for me adapting FSI is the easiest way to get extensive enough beginner input.)

I've used many other Assimil and Linguaphone courses too and the results are usually the same, in the beginning the sentences are simple and useful, but as soon as they go beyond the core vocabulary, things usually aren't repeated enough that they can be quickly and easily internalized, and so the only option is cramming and memorizing. You can make them work with enough determination, I just personally prefer to use other methods, because they've been faster and less frustrating for me.

I haven't personally seen anyone saying they've used 1 Assimil or Linguaphone course by itself as their first and only method for a distant language and have it be a successful experience, although if you know of some accounts I'm always interested to read others experiences. I know Luca tried Assimil Japanese and it was a total failure for him, and Alexander Arguelles while a big proponent for them is upfront that it takes him several beginner courses to have a good foundation.

And again, I'm not "against" these methods and obviously I think they're more helpful than a lot of other approaches on market, and if people are frustrated with other approaches they can be a big step up. But if someone finds them frustrating or feels like they haven't internalized the language well when using them, my experience is that more extensive beginner materials make the process much smoother and faster.
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby thevagrant88 » Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:40 pm

And that's all totally fair, I'm sure as hell not trying to invalidate your experiences or the experiences of others for that matter. I just often read similar sentiments that I (usually) don't feel apply to me and my experience. So I'm just throwing out that contrarian opinion of mine. There are no real absolutes in language learning so I feel it's important for all ideas to get a little pushback here and there so something closer to the "truth" comes out in the wash.

I guess I'm just your classic platonic interlocutor like that :lol:

RyanSmallwood wrote:I haven't personally seen anyone saying they've used 1 Assimil or Linguaphone course by itself as their first and only method for a distant language and have it be a successful experience.


In all fairness, I rarely ever hear anybody make this claim about any language. Even in this original post, OP listed several other sources he used in conjunction with Assimil. Not to mention that any beginner course is only going to get you so far anyway.
Last edited by thevagrant88 on Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby luke » Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:43 pm

RyanSmallwood wrote:I haven't personally seen anyone saying they've used 1 Assimil or Linguaphone course by itself as their first and only method for a distant language and have it be a successful experience, although if you know of some accounts I'm always interested to read others experiences. I know Luca tried Assimil Japanese and it was a total failure for him, and Alexander Arguelles while a big proponent for them is upfront that it takes him several beginner courses to have a good foundation.

That reminds me of this video:



Professor Arguelles talks about a "handful of manuals" (5-6) for exotic languages. Then he discusses 3 classifications of learning styles and gives some suggestions on which order to study the manuals, which by the way he mentions, "in sequence":

1. Learn by Analysis - Start with overview grammar, then a couple of grammar-translation courses, then Assimil/Linguaphone, finally targeted FSI drills for anything that didn't stuck.
2. Learn by Doing - Start with full Pimsleur for contemporary pronunciation, then full FSI, then overview grammar, then a drill workbook, then an Assimil/Linguaphone annotated course.
3. Learn by Observation - Start with a couple Assimils, then a Linguaphone, then a comprehensive grammar book, and finally targeted FSI drills for whatever hasn't stuck yet.

So he basically recommends a variety of types for each learning style, but the number of each type of course, the order, and the thoroughness of that one uses a particular method varies, based on the individual's learning style. E.G., overview vs comprehensive grammar, number of Assimil/Linguaphones to do, and whether FSI targets weak points or is used comprehensively.

Some of the course typologies he mentions in the following video based on the 3 types of learners:
1. Analytical:
a. "Bird eye" Overview grammars - Hugo in 3 months, Language Made Simple, older Living Language courses.
b. Comprehensive - Older Teach Yourself, older Colloquial courses, some French (L'Harmattan, L'Asiathèque) and German (Langenscheidt, Buske) courses.
2. Doing - by model, illustrations, and practice - FSI, SLS (Spoken Language Services), some Cortina methods (Russian, Japanese, Brazilian/Portuguese), some older Berlitz methods
3. Observation - global, holistic, learner okay with ambiguity: Assimil, older Linguaphone, 1/2 of Cortina methods (FIGS + Greek + English), some older Berlitz and Dunwoody methods.



Curious how Arguelles' notions of learning styles fits in with your experience.

Edited to add more details and the second video.
Last edited by luke on Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:00 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby iguanamon » Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:55 pm

Since I first found HTLAL over a decade ago, the forum has been praising Assimil as the greatest thing since sliced bread for language learning. I hadn't used it but had looked into it and sampled it. I found the audio to be way too slow for my liking and I gave it a miss when I learned Portuguese after having a high level in Spanish. I chose the much more thorough and complete DLI Portuguese Basic Course. I chose DLI for my Haitian Creole course too. There is no Assimil for Haitian Creole (except de poche) Ladino or St Lucian Kwéyòl (different from their Guadeloupe Creole course).

I started off just reading and watching series in Catalan. Later, I felt the need for a course to consolidate basic language and become productive. There is no DLI Catalan. I did Assimil Le Catalan instead of the Spanish-base course because I could already read, I wanted conversation and the French-base course was more focused on conversation.

While Assimil is good at what it does, found the strong points are its weak points. The short lessons give the learner a rapid sense of growing progress. The exercises are short. The course is about continuous progress. The audio is designed to give a beginner the ability to listen and pronounce.

The downside of Assimil, that few people talk about is that all of these good points about the course are also why so many people are frustrated with it. I've seen people over the years go back and do the course twice, put everything into Anki, repeat lessons, do the active wave and still not be satisfied with the outcome. The short lessons that provide a growing sense of progress work for the first 15 or so lessons and then start to become harder as more and more is crammed into the next lessons, until finally it's a lot to retain with not enough repetition built-in to retain it.

This lack of repetition is in the design of the course. It's baked in. The exercises are too short. There are not nearly enough drills to see the patterns in different contexts... and this is where the course falls down, at least from my experience having completed Le Catalan as per the book's instructions with an active wave (in Assimil's defense, I don't speak French, but I can read it well enough with my background to understand it, mostly). Even if the base had been English, I would've still been disappointed.

Fortunately, I already have a high level in both Spanish and Portuguese, my Ladino and Creoles also helped. The course helped me to improve and consolidate conversational skills, which is what I wanted it to do for me. Extrapolating my own experience with Assimil to approaching learning a language with which I have little in common, I would not do the course without doing a more thorough course with plenty of drills and grammar. Unfortunately, there is no Pimsleur Catalan, which would have helped me a lot with speaking and "automaticity".

There is a Zen koan "When you meet the Buddha on the road, you must kill him". "The Buddha" represents doctrine, "the way". We can have a guide, nut the guide is not infallible nor should the guide be seen as infallible. We all must find our own way on the path. By extension, putting too much faith in a course, any course can and will lead to disappointment. Assimil on its own, is simply not enough. The forum has built up Assimil so much that it simply cannot live up to the hype. The course has weaknesses, the same as any and every course. "When you meet the Buddha on the road, you must kill him" doesn't mean "ditch" Assimil, just realize that you need to supplement its weaknesses.

Myself, the slow audio is murder to me. With digital formats now, I hope the company comes out with both a slow version and native-speed version of its audio. A companion website or separate grammar exercise/drill book would also help.

After reviewing the last couple of posts, I agree with both. This post is more for beginners who may have bought into the hype, or those who have done a romance language Assimil and think that all the other courses will work the same "magic".
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby AllSubNoDub » Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:13 pm

RyanSmallwood wrote:I haven't personally seen anyone saying they've used 1 Assimil or Linguaphone course by itself as their first and only method for a distant language and have it be a successful experience, although if you know of some accounts I'm always interested to read others experiences. I know Luca tried Assimil Japanese and it was a total failure for him, and Alexander Arguelles while a big proponent for them is upfront that it takes him several beginner courses to have a good foundation.


I believe this guy just used Assimil as intended to get to this level. Sequentially went through a few courses afterwards to improve. I'm sure there are also many other examples I can't think of right now. AJATT is basically RTK followed by a grammar overview (Tae Kim's recommended a lot) followed by lots of native input. Japanese was a failure for Luca because the language itself is not conducive to learning through his bidirectional translation method, not because he used Assimil as intended and "failed". Also, Luca used Assimil Chinese with his BDT method and did have success.



As for Assimil for closer languages, didn't EMK get to a really high level in French with only Assimil (B2+)? Though I think his wife is French, so maybe that's cheating.
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby thevagrant88 » Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:39 pm

So I just typed up a long response about the whole Assimil discussion, but I deleted it as I read it over and found it to be overly mean-spirited. This forum isn't just for experienced learners and maybe this discussion just has to happen every once in a while.

Please use a multitude of resources, I'll just leave it at that :lol:
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby RyanSmallwood » Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:22 pm

luke wrote:
Professor Arguelles talks about a "handful of manuals" (5-6) for exotic languages. Then he discusses 3 classifications of learning styles and gives some suggestions on which order to study the manuals, which by the way he mentions, "in sequence":

1) Deductive/Analytical Learner - Start with overview grammar, then a couple of grammar-translation courses, then Assimil/Linguaphone, finally targeted FSI drills for anything that didn't stuck.
2) Learn by Doing - Start with full Pimsleur for modern pronunciation, then FSI drills, then overview grammar, then a drill workbook, then an Assimil/Linguaphone course.
3) Observational/Inductive Learner - Start with a couple Assimils, add a Linguaphone, then a comprehensive grammar book, and finally targeted FSI drills for whatever hasn't stuck yet.

So he basically recommends a variety of types for each learning style, but the number of each courses and the order varies, based on the individual.

Curious how Arguelles' notions of learning styles fits in with your experience.


Well I did #1 in school, and I started doing #2 for self-study and slowly shifted more to #3 over time. I think #1 and #2 worked fine for me in terms of internalizing the language and building up an understanding of the components, but progress is kind of slow, especially since I later had the goal of increasing comprehension as fast as possible. Doing pure #3 Assimil worked for me for studying more related languages (although even with them I had some background already, so I never tried just 1 Assimil course from scratch), but as I mention above with more distant languages I found it more frustrating and slow. For more distant languages maybe doing more #1 or #2 can be another path to increasing comprehension and making Assimil work better, for me personally wanting to do #3 I found finding more extensive materials or using lots of supplements was what helped most.
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby kanewai » Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:43 am

thevagrant88 wrote:So yeah, I'll stand my ground and die on this hill if I have to :lol:
en garde!

(in a light-hearted way ... it's hard to do irony online)

I should note that I have ten Assimil courses on my shelf - I just looked and counted - and there are others I've loaned out to friends & never saw again. And I'm currently working on Arabic. I don't want to shred Assimil, but maybe just knock it down a peg.

Assimil dialogues reach a B2 level. They don't promise that you'll reach a B2 level, just that the dialogues will reach that level. That's fair, to me.

But Assimil Italian reaches B2 after 105 lessons. Le Grec reaches it after 98 lessons. And Arabic after only 77 lessons! This just doesn't make sense. At least they divide Japanese into two books.

They do adjust the content to fit the language, more than with other courses. The Arabic course starts with learning basic third-person singular verb forms, the same way my course in college did. It's a good pattern to start with. This is to Assimil's credit. I'd compare that with Pimsleur or Living Language, who just did Arabic-language versions of their standard dialogues. That was rough.

As for Greek:Turkish, I'm going off the FSI categories for how long it takes an English-language learner to reach proficiency. They rank them both the same, which surprises me. Turkish was more foreign at first (to me), but once I learned to listen to vowel-harmony and understood agglutination I reached a pleasant plateau. Greek was more familiar at first, but had so many cases and conjugations that I never reached that plateau.
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby thevagrant88 » Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:10 pm

So to reiterate, I wasn’t defending Assimil. I was defending using bilingual texts with target language audio as a language learning tool, regardless of language pairs. We do not disagree on the quality of certain Assimil courses :D

I also find it interesting that Turkish is generally considered, “pretty tough” by learners, anecdotally. On paper, it shares much in common with Japanese which I’ve classified as, “pure f*@&ing murder”. Just goes to show I guess that language difficulty can’t be determined by consulting a checklist of features.
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