Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

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Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby kanewai » Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:09 am

I just came back from a three-week road trip across Greece. It was an amazing trip, but from a language-learner's perspective it was disheartening. I had spent a significant amount of time in 2021 studying Greek. I started with Language Transfer, spent a ton of time with Assimil, and did a level and a half of Pimsleur at the end.

And yet my Greek sucked.

At least, I sucked in my own self-assessment. To other tourists I was a rock star. The Greeks would tell me that I was doing well, and that my accent was great, and ask if I lived or worked there, and act amazed that I taught myself using books ... but they'd always tell me this in English.

So fine. Greek is hard. I knew that. I knew that I wouldn't be "fluent" in nine months.

BUT: Fifteen years ago I put about three months into studying Turkish, which is theoretically equally difficult for native-English speakers. And yet in Turkey I was able to travel monolingually - i.e. without needing English - while in country.

I've been asking myself what the difference was. And I think it comes down to this:

... with Turkish I used one of those older "Teach Yourself" courses. It might have been Colloquial, it might have been Living Language - but it was in that genre. They weren't the greatest courses, and I didn't get past the seventh or eighth chapter. I doubt I studied anything past the A1/A2 level. And yet ... when I arrived in Selçuk the first day I could stumble through life in Turkey at the A1 level. And as I travelled I just slowly built on that basic level, and I could always refer to that book to refresh my memory.

... with Greek most of my energy went into Assimil. I was studying the language at a B1/B2 level - without actually being able to engage in basic communication beyond ordering a gyros and a beer. I had a much more comprehensive understanding of Greek - I just couldnt speak it. And Assimil isn't a book that you can just open and refresh one concept. And LT (which I still love) and Pimsleur don't even label their lessons, and they're all audio anyways ... so they weren't helpful if I needed a five minute refresher in the morning.

In a way my Greek experience reminded me of my first French experience. I had two years in college, I could pass the final exams even if they asked me about some conjugation-from-hell like the plus-que-parfait du subjonctif ... but I didn't know how to ask for a coffee in a bar.

Knowing a language at an A1 level doesn't sound impressive ... but it means that you have a solid base to build on. Sometimes knowing a little bit of everything doesn't really help in practical terms.

When I look back at my other experiences with languages, the only times that an 'assimilation' type course has worked has been if 1) I already knew a related language, or 2) I already had a solid base in the language.

I still do like Assimil. I have a shelf full of their courses. But also, I'm realizing that they offer a false promise, that you can learn a language without *studying. At least for me, I need to grind my way through an old-fashioned course first, and save Assimil for when I'm already semi-comfortable with the language.

* edit: I should have written "without memorization" rather than "without studying."
Last edited by kanewai on Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby Deinonysus » Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:12 am

First of all, I'd say that being able to order a gyro and a beer in Greece is living the dream, don't sell yourself short!

At first I was puzzled by your lack of success, since I was able to have a nice immersive tourist experience in France using basically the same methods. I think there are a few differences, but there is one big one! I'll start with the small ones:
  • I did five levels of Pimsleur French; you only did a level and a half, and I believe there are only two levels available for Greek.
  • French is significantly easier than Greek, with no case system except in the pronouns and a ton of vocabulary that is transparent to English.
  • I did have one extra advantage, which is that my wife is a French teacher and when I make mistakes she corrects them.
But I think the big difference is that I didn't notice you mentioning native media. Assimil's recordings are at a slow pace and you won't necessarily be able to understand native speech very well if it's your only listening experience (especially with a fast language like Greek!). What Assimil is good for is that it gives you the tools to understand native media if you get lots of exposure to it; at first you won't be able to understand much but with enough practice you will be able to understand it well! Assimil isn't a listening fluency plant. It's just a seed, but all you need to do is plant it and water it!

My experience with Icelandic might be a little closer to your experience with Greek. I went through the single Pimsleur level that was available and I was able to order food and drink, buy books, and explain that I was learning Icelandic, but I didn't understand most of what was said back to me. But I did skip the steps of doing Assimil (there is an abridged course for Icelandic) and then listening to lots of media. I think I could have had a more immersive experience if I did that.
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby Diomedes » Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:23 pm

Deinonysus wrote: [...] Assimil isn't a listening fluency plant. It's just a seed, but all you need to do is plant it and water it!

[...].


I love that analogy.


kanewai wrote: [...]

I still do like Assimil. I have a shelf full of their courses. But also, I'm realizing that they offer a false promise, that you can learn a language without studying. At least for me, I need to grind my way through an old-fashioned course first, and save Assimil for when I'm already semi-comfortable with the language.


As an enthusiast of both Assimil and old TY books, I found your report very informative. I did some successful solo travels with the help of Assimil, but I never relied exclusively on it. It was sometimes preceded by Pimsleur (three levels of french, for instance). Then, doing Assimil, I always did some basic grammar-based books like Schaum outlines and/or old TY books. And lots of vocabulary lists by hand. And, after that, I would always test myself with random native materials (audio/video), and make at least three (preferably more) conversation sessions with online tutors.

Another point not to be neglected is that, until now, I only did it successfully with languages that were somewhat familiar before all of it (all germanic and romance languages). So, greek or turkish would certainly require a different kind of effort.

My belief is that Assimil is a hugely valuable tool, as are online tutors, grammar-based books and any other material that fit your learning style. But I would never trust the "promises" of self-study courses as they are marketed ("with ease", "without effort", "in three months", and so on). You have to mix several different approaches/ingredients to make a good drink, and your experience seems to show that, if I got it well.
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby kanewai » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:53 pm

Deinonysus wrote:First of all, I'd say that being able to order a gyro and a beer in Greece is living the dream, don't sell yourself short! ...

What Assimil is good for is that it gives you the tools to understand native media if you get lots of exposure to it; at first you won't be able to understand much but with enough practice you will be able to understand it well! Assimil isn't a listening fluency plant. It's just a seed, but all you need to do is plant it and water it!
I did well compared to other tourists! But I also put in perhaps 200 hours worth of studying, and that felt like an awful lot of work just to be able to order dinner with a nice accent.

200 hours might be enough to reach limited proficiency in a Romance or Scandinavian language. It is nowhere near enough for a language like Greek. Rationally, I know this.

I totally agree with your thoughts on Assimil, though. It's worked great for me in the past as a bridge from course books to native media. And at first it was very, very useful with Greek. The main issue is that the dialogues move from beginner's level to B2 level over the course of 100 lessons, which is much too fast a pace. Towards the end it would take me three nights just to work through one dialogue, and I'm not sure it was an efficient use of time.

I'm realizing that I still need traditional course books to get from 0 to A2. I need to memorize vocabulary and do grammar drills and write out my lessons and study verb tables & all those other old-fashioned things.

By comparison, with Turkish I only put in perhaps 100 hours, but it was with an old-fashioned grammar course. And while I have a much, much broader understanding now of the Greek language than of Turkish, I have a much more practical understanding of Turkish.

In retrospect, what I would do next time is:
1. Language Transfer for a general overview of the language
2. The first fifty lessons of Assimil to get used to the writing, and for practical experience
3. A grammar book, even a mediocre one like Living Language
4. Continue with Assimil and Pimsleur
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby Faust » Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:37 am

Don't Greeks also generally have a higher level of English than Turkish people? Thus your Turkish simply had to go further and the Turks had to engage with it more. If there is no option to fall back to English, you have to make do.
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby David1917 » Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:16 pm

Faust wrote:Don't Greeks also generally have a higher level of English than Turkish people? Thus your Turkish simply had to go further and the Turks had to engage with it more. If there is no option to fall back to English, you have to make do.


I think this is a factor as well in them responding to you in English. It just happens - some people probably want to practice English as much as you want to practice their language.

As for the main thrust of your post, I think anyone except the marketing team at Assimil would agree that you need a few different approaches. Of course it's a false promise; it's a gimmick. Assimil gets you some content and a few translation exercises; Pimsleur & LT get you some word-building and situational dialogues; TYS & Colloquial get you really breaking down the grammar. Your proposition to do LT -> Assimil -> Grammar book -> More Assimil seems like a highly logical one, and generally what I've found to be helpful. For example, I did MT's French course before then giving Assimil & Hugo a go and thought it was a nice "soft" introduction to it. I'm currently doing LT Greek before even considering opening Assimil or a grammar book.

None is inherently better or worse (except maybe new TYS books are worse), it's the combination of them and the way you manage expectations with each. For example, a TYS without audio I would completely skip the pronunciation section - why do that when I can listen to Assimil or Pimsleur? For Assimil, you'll barely get grammar tables, so often I skip the 7th lessons and resort to a TYS type book.
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby kanewai » Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:09 am

Faust wrote:Don't Greeks also generally have a higher level of English than Turkish people? Thus your Turkish simply had to go further and the Turks had to engage with it more. If there is no option to fall back to English, you have to make do.
Probably in general, but it was actually the opposite this trip. I spent the first week in Macedonia and Epirus, and I was often in situations where few spoke English. This is what drove home to me that I was sorely lacking in practical skills.

What actually happened in Turkey was that guys were so amused to find an American who spoke a bit that they all wanted to talk to me in Turkish. That helped immensely, but I'm glad I started with some basic skills. I've had similar experiences in Egypt and Jordan, though my Arabic was minimal.

I don't want to slam Assimil specifically - I'll be starting in on the Arabic course soon - but more the concept that one shouldn't memorize vocabulary and verb tables &c. This seems to be the message in a lot of modern courses. Pimsleur, Language Transfer, and Assimil (my go-to courses) all actively discourage it!

If I had spent time memorizing and drilling basic vocabulary and verb forms I would have had a better base to work with than the sort of broad-ranging knowledge I had. It wasn't useless by any means. When I did learn a new phrase I had a strong framework for understanding it.

-------------------------------------------

Here's a good cross-cultural linguistic story:

The patronne of my hotel near the Vikos Gorge spoke close to no English. If one didn't understand her she would just speak louder. She knew I was trying to learn Greek, and she would chat with me in the evening over coffee. Or chat at me, as I would usually understand nothing. I met a handful of woman like her, who would just talk talk talk while I sat there smiling. It was nice. She would also ask me to translate for other guests. That was challenging.

One night the guests were all eating dinner. A couple from Britain had just arrived, but hadn't ordered dinner.

The British woman: Oh look. They're eating dinner. Imagine this in a posh accent.
Mrs. Stathoulla (the patronne): YOU! NO DINNER!
The Brit: Pardon, what?
Mrs. Stathoulla: NO DINNER!!!

I think the Brits are about to flee out the door into the night. Mrs. Stathoulla says something to me that I do not understand, but I guess what she's trying to say. I explain to the Brits that you need to order dinner that morning, as there's no store in the village and Mrs. Stathoulla needs to go to the next town to buy produce.

The Brits: Can we order dinner for tomorrow then?
Me (in broken Greek): They want to eat. Tomorrow. Andaxi?
Mrs. Stathoulla (after correcting my grammar): Kala! Andaxi! (Good! OK!)
The British woman: What's for dinner tomorrow?

Mrs. Stathoulla says a lot of things in Greek. I understand chicken, potatoes, and greens. I tell the Brits.

The British woman: Is it roast chicken?
Me: I don't know.
The Brit: Can you ask?
Me: I only know the word for chicken.
The Brit: Can you ask her how it's cooked?
Me: This is only my fifth day in Greece. I only know that it's chicken.
Mrs. Stathoula makes a clucking sound, then: κοτόπουλο! Chicken!
I pretend to flap my wings: Nai! Kotopoulo is chicken! I'm just excited that I got a word right.
Mrs. Stathoulla: Kala. She smiles at me and goes back in the kitchen.

... I think the British couple were thoroughly irritated with both of us by this point. Later they had issues with how the Greeks prepare tea, but I didn't even try to intervene in that conversation.
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby RyanSmallwood » Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:04 pm

In my experience, one of the issues with Assimil (and a lot of these old standardized book and CD methods), is that they all share the same design regardless of the distance between languages. So it may work for languages with a lot of shared vocabulary like the original French ---> English course, but I find with more distant languages the process is unnecessarily slow. More explicit grammar instruction may help, but I think just more easy sentence examples in the beginning also can be a big benefit. My go to for more distant languages is often FSI, using the Truncate Silence feature in Audacity to turn it into a more absorption by exposure course like Assimil, but with a lot more examples of fundamental sentence patterns. Although sometimes you can find more language-specific resources that are more extensive than Assimil and more fun than FSI. Another alternative is to use 3-5 beginner courses from different generations of Assimil or Assimil-like courses like Alexander Argüelles does.
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby kanewai » Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:12 pm

RyanSmallwood wrote:In my experience, one of the issues with Assimil (and a lot of these old standardized book and CD methods), is that they all share the same design regardless of the distance between languages. So it may work for languages with a lot of shared vocabulary like the original French ---> English course, but I find with more distant languages the process is unnecessarily slow.
This frustrates me across the board, and with almost every popular language program.
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Re: Lessons from Greek (sometimes the old ways are best)

Postby thevagrant88 » Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:41 pm

I would be very surprised if Turkish is typically considered "equally difficult for native-English speakers". On paper, Turkish is much more different than English than Greek is and by extension "should" have presented more challenges. Honestly though, there are just way too many factors to consider why your experience was different between the two. You're comparing a recent experience to the memory of something that happened fifteen years ago, using different materials, interacting with people of different cultural backgrounds who may have different levels of tolerance for foreign speakers, your motivation now vs then, and a million other factors.

I wouldn't overthink it if I were you. Sometimes things simply "are" and the "why" is too abstract to have any meaningful purpose. In either case, it sounds like you had a blast :)
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