On monolingual textbooks and courses

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PeterMollenburg
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Re: On monolingual textbooks and courses

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:46 am

Iversen wrote:Actually I have a principle:

Extensive resources should be as monolingual as possible - maybe they require a few dictionary lookups, but anything more than that would break the momentum.

Intensive resources function best when they are bilingual (i.e. bilingual texts, dictionaries and grammars written by non-natives because they are more focused on the things I as a learner need)


Actually, this makes a lot of sense, thanks, Iversen!
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On another note, there are two well known comprehensive resources for beginning (but serious) language learners of French and Spanish respectively. French in Action is monolingual, while Destinos is English based. I hold them both in high regard as great resources, but I do feel Destinos is a better course. Is it just that it is a better designed course or is it that the monolingual FIA leaves one feeling a little too lost because it is monolingual? The course designers of French in Action feel that "French is not a translation of English" and while most people would certainly agree, I'm not so convinced this argument is good enough to warrant French resources never having English translations. Yes it's not a translation of English, yes there is some value in being immersed in the language, which is the idea behind French, but perhaps immersion is better left for intermediate or advanced stages of language learning.

When I first used FIA many many years ago, I found myself sneakily using a bilingual dictionary on the side. On the other hand, I couldn't see Destinos working as a monolingual tool, especially with regards to the books and exercises, but it was never designed that way either, so that's not a fair comparison really.

So, is it also a matter of the style of learner? Some learners prefer or perform better than others with monolingual resources at the beginning stages perhaps. As suggested already, does it depend on your native language? Does it also depend on other already known languages with regards to the learner?

All in all though, I tend to agree with another forum member that neither monolingual nor bilingual resources are inherently better. Each serves a purpose. Ultimately it seems it may depend on the learner's background with regards to languages, their background in terms of learning style(s), at which stage in their learning they are up to and the quality of the resource(s).

For me, with intermediate to advanced French I like using a mixture of dictionaries (bilingual and monolingual), a mixture of courses (mono-, bilingual), but prefer to read books without translations and watch TV without subtitles. I think Iversen hit the nail on the head in saying that intensive activities are best done with bilingual resources while extensive activities are best with as little interference as possible from your native language.
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Re: On monolingual textbooks and courses

Postby mokibao » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:31 am

Among many teachers there seems to be a dislike of translating things because "you must think in your target language", "translations are a crutch", "you should deduce the meaning of words from context" etc. Traduttore, traditore! The end result is usually students misusing words because they never nailed its exact translation right, and generally getting bored in a course because they have no idea what's going on. When I first encountered the Assimil method I was amazed to see that such a successful method ran counter to all the modern tropes about language teaching.

On the other hand, the "Nature method" books are such high quality and they work. Many users have also praised various monolingual textbooks on here. So maybe it does not come to the style of the method but its content quality.

Iversen wrote:I do own several monolingual dictionaries, but mostly just use them for etymological and morphological information - or for entertainment, which is an extensive activity (cfr. the rule above). I also own several grammars written in the language they describe (like "Le Bon Usage" by Grevisse in French), but I can't see that they work better than those written in some other language.


You should probably know that Le Bon Usage is considered a very prescriptive book and will almost by definition miss out on a large swathe of the actual French language as it is spoken and written by its users. I'd recommend La grammaire méthodique du français as a descriptive grammar.
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Re: On monolingual textbooks and courses

Postby lysi » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:33 am

mokibao wrote:You should probably know that Le Bon Usage is considered a very prescriptive book and will almost by definition miss out on a large swathe of the actual French language as it is spoken and written by its users. I'd recommend La grammaire méthodique du français as a descriptive grammar.


Considered by who to be very prescriptive? It's composed only of observations supported by examples that it gives immediately after stating the observations, and indeed, it has quite a few citations. 2500 authors and 40000 citations to be exact. Really, is that not exactly what descriptivism is? What large swath of the actual french language is missed? I've looked through Gramaire Methodique and the two books are laid out in almost exactly the same way, just that Le Bon Usage is far more comprehensive and with far more citations. I couldn't find, for example, Marie Noël giving laisser the future stem of 'lair' in Grammaire Methodique. Sure, there is a mark that the authors place next to examples they believe that the average european french speaker wouldn't understand (of practical utility, above all, for the readers), but they go into quite a bit of detail on the particularities, when it's relevant to the topic, to regional variations of whatever they're talking about. In no way is this trying to ban or prevent the usage, but rather a warning. Here's a quote from the beginning of the book: "Il n'y a pas d'ailleurs un bon français dont les limites sont tracées au cordeau. Bien parler, c'est savoir s'adapter aux circonstances: il y en a où le langage familier est le seul adéquat, et d'autres où il faut un style soutenu." Even the use of avoir as a conjugation for pronomial verbs is accepted without any hesitation or mark (which is certainly not something a prescriptive grammar for a soutenu standard french would ever do).

Perhaps the book was more prescriptive before, but in the current edition, I just can't see how your criticisms would be valid in any way. It does have its faults (it has a bit of a problem with anglisicms) but it's not worth discounting the entire book simply for that.
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Re: On monolingual textbooks and courses

Postby Iversen » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:27 pm

I mentioned "Le Bon Usage" because it is monolingual, not because it is perfect. It has a huge number of quotes, but almost all of them are from authors who wrote in typically highbrow written French - and the style used by people like André Gide or Maupassant is probably not the style a typical L2 learner today would choose to emulate. Of course there is lots of useful information, but outside the narrow literary circles it's the jungle law that rules, and many informations and proposed patterns from Grevisse are simple not valid out there. But inside those circles the style described by Monsieur Grevisse is still dominant so if your dream is to write articles and novels in impeccably highbrow French then it might still be worth working your way through his book.

mokibao wrote:Among many teachers there seems to be a dislike of translating things because "you must think in your target language", "translations are a crutch", "you should deduce the meaning of words from context" etc. Traduttore, traditore! (...) On the other hand, the "Nature method" books are such high quality and they work. Many users have also praised various monolingual textbooks on here. So maybe it does not come to the style of the method but its content quality.


My answer to such teachers would be to quote my principle from above that divides the world into intensive and extensive activities. When I listen to videos on the internet or read for fun I hate being interrupted by passages in English (or Danish for that matter) just because the author doesn't trust my skills. On the other hand I don't want to play guessing games with a monolingual dictionary when a bilingual one could have told me the solution in a language I already understand. And the distinction is even more important for home learners than it is for pupils in a classroom setting.
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Re: On monolingual textbooks and courses

Postby Cavesa » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:41 pm

mokibao wrote:Among many teachers there seems to be a dislike of translating things because "you must think in your target language", "translations are a crutch", "you should deduce the meaning of words from context" etc. Traduttore, traditore! The end result is usually students misusing words because they never nailed its exact translation right, and generally getting bored in a course because they have no idea what's going on. When I first encountered the Assimil method I was amazed to see that such a successful method ran counter to all the modern tropes about language teaching.

On the other hand, the "Nature method" books are such high quality and they work. Many users have also praised various monolingual textbooks on here. So maybe it does not come to the style of the method but its content quality.


I tend to think teachers also appreciate the dependence of the learners on them, if they use monolingual resources. Either consciously or subconsciously. If you convince the student that the most useful self study tools (like a bilingual dictionary! I've really experienced teachers discouraging students from their use, with extra focus on distrust and hate towards any online dictionary! First hand experience, I am not making this up!) are harmful for their progress, they'll progress in a slower and controlled manner and will keep paying for longer. If the teacher works in a school, so they get paid no matter what the students do (they cannot opt out), then discouraging people from self study even in such a manner makes the work simpler. The class end up being more homogenous without the "unwanted" activity of the more motivated students, and therefore easier to work with.

Let's never forget that teachers are not paid for the students' success. It matters a lot.

You're right about the effects of avoiding translation too much. It also goes hand in hand with the unfortunate trend today, to make more and more class time (in various subjects) about dumb individual or group projects, instead of more efficient learning. I've read a wonderful comment by a teacher (who goes a bit against this stupid trend), who describes this as a sort of a "cargo cult" (wikipedia describes it well), where people are supposed to act as someone with a much better level of knowledge, but without actually having the base knowledge. It applies here too. People are supposed to do conversational exercises, parrot sample dialogues, but don't really have a clue about how the phrases are constructed and what exactly are the meanings of everything.

Mostly monolingual classes are indeed possible, but it is a much more complicated thing, than just removing the extremely useful bilingual tools. If you take someone's crutches away, it's not likely to miraculously heal their legs.

I'm all for monolingual resources, but especially from finished A2 on. We need to switch to them anyways at the intermediate levels, bilingual B1 coursebooks are already rare and their advantages no longer matter as much. But at the beginnings, I'd say a monolingual coursebook needs to be otherwise very user friendly, well organised, and used with at least a dictionary, to really give the learner the most value. Both in self study and class environment.
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Re: On monolingual textbooks and courses

Postby lysi » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:52 pm

Iversen wrote:Of course there is lots of useful information, but outside the narrow literary circles it's the jungle law that rules, and many informations and proposed patterns from Grevisse are simple not valid out there. But inside those circles the style described by Monsieur Grevisse is still dominant so if your dream is to write articles and novels in impeccably highbrow French then it might still be worth working your way through his book.

You can say anything about 'jungle law' but there's seriously nothing that I've not been able to find, no matter how popular, within Le Bon Usage. It even goes over 't'inquiete' in the negation part of the book. And only about half of the citations are actually from authors. What edition of the book do you have? Grevisse hasn't written the book since 1980 (when he died), it's his son-in-law André Goosse who writes it now.
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Re: On monolingual textbooks and courses

Postby Iversen » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:59 pm

... and now I really feel like a lost survivor from long before the last Ice age: my Grevisse is the 9. edition from 1969, and I have not checked any newer versions. And maybe my picture of the book has been coloured by the immense, nay, overWHELMING number of quotes from authors who wrote their books in the misty longgone days of yore, and maybe I have overlooked a few hints at less glorious writing styles, including those that try to reflect the modern spoken language. Maybe I should sit down and read a few chapters so that I can see how much there is in the book about such styles, but I just opened it on page 299 and saw 14 lines about the pronunciation of the "pluriel des adjectifs qualificatifs" in the spoken language and more then three full pages about those same plurals in the written language - so it definitely has a bias. And I doubt that the heirs du feu maître du bon usage have dared to totally rewrite the book to make it more popular.

But I like it as it is. I like that slightly snobby style which French authors have used for centuries. I have in fact written a wee something in that style myself - my impertinent travesty on Racine, "Phèdre atomique", can be read here.
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Re: On monolingual textbooks and courses

Postby El Forastero » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:54 am

When I decided to learn italian, firstly I tried to find monolingual resources because, as a spanish speaker who alredy had a C1 level in both French and Portugues, I will definitely understand most of the beginner content. And I did, that's was very encouraging, I remember. I was able to simply start with real yet slow content and simply got the main idea.

That worked for the reading and listening content, but there was a problem for the course itself and the grammar explanations. Monolingual resources were unnecessarily at a low complexity level, I suppose because their main target were students from not-latin-based languages background.

For instance: A detailed explanation about how different the verbs ESSERE and STARE are can be very relevant for the german, french or english speaker, but not for me, who already know the differences. Or a detailed ruled about what auxiliary verb should you use to form the past depending on the main verb is needed for an english speaker but not for a french speaker who already knows the rule in french.

That's why I shift to a spanish-based italian course as soon as I identify this because otherwise I would spent lots of time learning something that I have already learned. And this spanish course really take in consideration that, as a spanish speaker, some explanations need to be as simple as "That works in the same way as in spanish".

Obviously, there are some specific differences and particularities for italian, but I could get them sooner than if I would have taken a monolingual course.
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Re: On monolingual textbooks and courses

Postby mokibao » Mon May 10, 2021 12:09 am

Cavesa wrote:
I tend to think teachers also appreciate the dependence of the learners on them, if they use monolingual resources. Either consciously or subconsciously. If you convince the student that the most useful self study tools (like a bilingual dictionary! I've really experienced teachers discouraging students from their use, with extra focus on distrust and hate towards any online dictionary! First hand experience, I am not making this up!) are harmful for their progress, they'll progress in a slower and controlled manner and will keep paying for longer. If the teacher works in a school, so they get paid no matter what the students do (they cannot opt out), then discouraging people from self study even in such a manner makes the work simpler. The class end up being more homogenous without the "unwanted" activity of the more motivated students, and therefore easier to work with.

Let's never forget that teachers are not paid for the students' success. It matters a lot.

You're right about the effects of avoiding translation too much. It also goes hand in hand with the unfortunate trend today, to make more and more class time (in various subjects) about dumb individual or group projects, instead of more efficient learning. I've read a wonderful comment by a teacher (who goes a bit against this stupid trend), who describes this as a sort of a "cargo cult" (wikipedia describes it well), where people are supposed to act as someone with a much better level of knowledge, but without actually having the base knowledge. It applies here too. People are supposed to do conversational exercises, parrot sample dialogues, but don't really have a clue about how the phrases are constructed and what exactly are the meanings of everything.

Mostly monolingual classes are indeed possible, but it is a much more complicated thing, than just removing the extremely useful bilingual tools. If you take someone's crutches away, it's not likely to miraculously heal their legs.


On one hand you have things like LLPSI, on the other hand you have courses like Language Transfer that are essentially in English apart from drills yet they receive only praise (for the Greek and Spanish ones, at least). The more acquainted I get with resources the more I have this feeling that the method doesn't matter very much at all and it's all contingent on the quality of the material and the teacher (and the student, I guess).
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Re: On monolingual textbooks and courses

Postby Le Baron » Mon May 10, 2021 1:00 am

Reading through the thread it seems different people have different requirements and also the same person has different requirement at times. I don't know that there's any way of saying one or the other is best for any given circumstances or language. I've started on bilingual courses and then abandoned them because it had too much of the teaching language in the audio rather than the target language. But I've also started all L2 content courses and become discouraged by not being able to understand certain points written/spoken in the L2.

Despite all the talk about immersion as best approach, there are times when getting a quick, concise grammar point explanation in your L1 language (or any other you're comfortable working in) can actually get you moving quicker than slogging through it in the L2 under the impression that you're learning more just by doing that!

I mix and match as required. There'll come a time when you are mostly using the L2, but like riding a bike there's no shame in using stabilisers, then one stabiliser, then none. There are usually many roads to the same place.
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