North American Indigenous Language Resources

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Re: North American Indigenous Language Resources

Postby księżycowy » Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:44 am

I have redacted links to the Language Conservatory materials, but decided to keep the entries with a strikethrough as there are some Lakota that still support the organization.

I have also removed Hopi from the list.
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Re: North American Indigenous Language Resources

Postby IronMike » Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:14 pm

galaxyrocker wrote:Also, why would someone want to learn a language where it's clear the speakers would prefer it to be kept to only people with ties to the language? To me, it just reeks of entitlement: "I don't care what's happened to you and your language in the past, but I, with absolutely no connection to you, deserve to be able to learn it if I want to, regardless of whether you want me to or not."

It's quite possible there are those among us who have indigenous roots but don't have access to these classes or native speakers. Deleting links or even names of books here could prevent those folks from learning about resources available to them.

And another thing: I've studied many languages through my years where I had hardly any chance of ever coming across a speaker of that language. If I did and that person I ran across looked at me with disgust that I've tried to learn their language, I'd just say OK, and move on.

Respectfully, galaxyrocker, it's not for you or me to tell someone they can't learn a language. Might as well tell someone they aren't allowed to learn about Russian politics if they aren't Russian.
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Re: North American Indigenous Language Resources

Postby galaxyrocker » Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:42 am

IronMike wrote:Respectfully, galaxyrocker, it's not for you or me to tell someone they can't learn a language.


Then this is where I'm going to have to disagree, especially with regards to indigenous languages. If people have indigenous heritage and wish to learn the language, then they can contact the tribe and interact with them. But these tribes have made it clear they don't want outsiders learning and disrespecting their languages, and I think we should respect that. After all, this situation arises precisely because people have felt entitled to those languages (see the Lakota Consortium issue) and have abused their power over these people. The least we should do is respect their wishes.

And, it is different for linguists than for learners as linguists will face consequences if they misbehave on the tribe, and often are required to give something back to the tribe (whether in learning materials, or teaching tribal members how to be linguists, etc.)

Basically, minority languages are in an entirely different position than majority ones, and ones of indigenous people much more so given their special connection. They're not "open" by default, to use the linguistics terminology, and that should be respected, as should their wishes. To do otherwise is just to perpetuate the sense of entitlement and colonialism that they've already experienced enough of.
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Re: North American Indigenous Language Resources

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:34 am

I’ve built some language apps that touch minority and indigenous languages where questions about language access to outsiders have been raised, including the Cherokee and Assyrian languages.

When possible I’ve tried to assess with community leaders if I’m infringing on their language projects, or cultural identity concerns.

My work is copyrighted. But I have also made sure that I pay fairly if I use native speakers for pronunciation or that I put a profit share process if I’m charging for material. I’ve also made content open access on occasion.

Through that, I’ve become aware that attitudes on exclusion of outsiders are rarely cut and dry. Nor does one person or counsel always speak for the community (on either side of the permission question).

Sharing a link or not, for me, probably depends on the quality of the source, personal ethics and the organization posting the link. I’d have little issue if the community posts the material. Private commercial projects are more problematic.
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Re: North American Indigenous Language Resources

Postby galaxyrocker » Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:31 am

zenmonkey wrote:My work is copyrighted. But I have also made sure that I pay fairly if I use native speakers for pronunciation or that I put a profit share process if I’m charging for material. I’ve also made content open access on occasion.


That's awesome, and good for you. That's part of the issue I think the Lakota were having. Coupled with the fact that the Consortium is then applying and getting all these grants for preserving/making material in a language that they basically collected for free, and not giving any of it back. I can easily see why they'd be upset.


zenmonkey wrote:I’d have little issue if the community posts the material. Private commercial projects are more problematic.


I have no issues with the former, at all. Like where the Cherokee Nation offers open courses to anyone online who is interested. The Nation is doing this as a whole, and thus it's fine to share. The issue is when a Nation has made it clear they don't support the resource or outsiders learning their language.
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Re: North American Indigenous Language Resources

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:53 am

galaxyrocker wrote: That's part of the issue I think the Lakota were having. Coupled with the fact that the Consortium is then applying and getting all these grants for preserving/making material in a language that they basically collected for free, and not giving any of it back. I can easily see why they'd be upset.
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Looking at the LL Consortium pages it seems that several board members are Lakota community leaders. But it’s a community I don’t follow so I’m not well versed in the current situation.

Edit: just read the recent NBC article. It’s definitely a problematic situation. I understand better your concerns.
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Re: North American Indigenous Language Resources

Postby IronMike » Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:22 am

galaxyrocker wrote:Basically, minority languages are in an entirely different position than majority ones, and ones of indigenous people much more so given their special connection. They're not "open" by default, to use the linguistics terminology, and that should be respected, as should their wishes. To do otherwise is just to perpetuate the sense of entitlement and colonialism that they've already experienced enough of.

I'm never going to agree with you on this. Information should be available to all. If the Lakota are offended I'm learning their language, fine. I won't talk with them. I'll still study (have studied) their language as it is terribly interesting. And frankly, the authors of these books are still taking money. In fact, the author of the book I used, Reading and Writing the Lakota Language, was known as teaching the language to tribal members as well as non-Native Americans. He was responsible for the Lakota language in Dances with Wolves. At his death, Albert White Hat Sr's daughter said "he believed it was better to take the opportunity than to be misled about who we are.” I agree with him.

You don't have to learn Lakota (or Hopi, or ...) galaxyrocker, but don't hinder me or anyone else who wants to from finding these resources.
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Re: North American Indigenous Language Resources

Postby zenmonkey » Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:47 am

IronMike wrote:
galaxyrocker wrote:Basically, minority languages are in an entirely different position than majority ones, and ones of indigenous people much more so given their special connection. They're not "open" by default, to use the linguistics terminology, and that should be respected, as should their wishes. To do otherwise is just to perpetuate the sense of entitlement and colonialism that they've already experienced enough of.

I'm never going to agree with you on this. Information should be available to all. If the Lakota are offended I'm learning their language, fine. I won't talk with them. I'll still study (have studied) their language as it is terribly interesting. And frankly, the authors of these books are still taking money. In fact, the author of the book I used, Reading and Writing the Lakota Language, was known as teaching the language to tribal members as well as non-Native Americans. He was responsible for the Lakota language in Dances with Wolves. At his death, Albert White Hat Sr's daughter said "he believed it was better to take the opportunity than to be misled about who we are.” I agree with him.

You don't have to learn Lakota (or Hopi, or ...) galaxyrocker, but don't hinder me or anyone else who wants to from finding these resources.


I think there are a few different topics. (At the risk of touching on politics - I'll try to limit my post)

One is, are languages "open" and can anyone try to learn them? Another other is around the intellectual property - the publication of books, who owns recordings, who has access to the material. A third is around standardization and 'fixing' a language and how that is managed. It seems that the Lakota did have, in this case, the attitude to share their language (but not access to some material) for quite a while. Copyright and non-tribal law got in the way, issues rose.

I don't think the community is saying don't learn the language (although some individuals may find it suspect, others will appreciate it). I think the concerns here - underlined by the articles and public info are around the ways the material is being made accessible. And who owns the learning material and other tribal cultural heritage.

For me, all languages are 'open' with very few exceptions - in the sense that if I were to live as an outsider near or in a community, that community would likely share everyday aspects of the language - the exceptions are obvious - religious languages or exchanges, cultures closed to outsiders. In the specific case of the authors of some of the Lakota material, they have been rejected and are not longer allowed on the reservation land. I think this speaks volumes.

My language contact with the non-Spanish cultures of Mexico is a little different - here it's often a hierarchical disdain for not speaking Spanish that gets mixed in as well as a reasonable push back to not be 'anthropological curiousities'. Minority language learners are sometimes seen as suspect. I think it's normal to need to earn trust.
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Re: North American Indigenous Language Resources

Postby galaxyrocker » Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:17 am

I'm done with this thread. All I see is a sense of entitlement, which is exactly what has caused a lot of the problems to begin with. "Who cares what the actual speakers want, my fleeting desire to study their language is more important!" Sorry for thinking that if a language community has made it clear they have issues with materials or outsiders learning their language, that should be respected. Especially for indigenous languages, where there's already been so much taken and done to them by the same people who are now abusing what little they have left.

Reminds me of the native american tribe that refused to allow linguists to study their language -- and took it to their deaths. They collectively made a decision against this sense of entitlement. Do I wish they had shared it? Absolutely! Do I respect and understand their decision? Even more so. That's why I think we should respect what the Hopi and Lakota say. It's very different than the Cherokee, who offer courses available online to all already. Languages aren't just playthings/collectors items as we often consider them to be, and have way more value to the people that speak them. Especially indigenous ones, which are so often tied up with identity.

Just to add: the Lakota do seem to be "open" to outsiders learning their languages. The issue they're having is with the specific manner of how the material was created and copyrighted, etc, as zenmonkey said. The Hopi do not want outsiders.
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Re: North American Indigenous Language Resources

Postby lowsocks » Tue Jun 07, 2022 7:45 pm

galaxyrocker wrote:Reminds me of the native american tribe that refused to allow linguists to study their language -- and took it to their deaths. They collectively made a decision against this sense of entitlement. Do I wish they had shared it? Absolutely! Do I respect and understand their decision? Even more so.
Do you have any more information on this - which tribe, and which language?

It is terrible when languages die, but from stories I have read, usually the last few speakers are willing to work with linguists, to see that their language is at least documented. The situation you describe sounds very unusual. Even if they could not care less about outsiders, their decision would seem to deprive their descendants of any accurate knowledge of their ancestors' language.
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