Audio lingual language programs

All about language programs, courses, websites and other learning resources
Tomás
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Re: Audio lingual language programs

Postby Tomás » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:14 pm

Volunteering to help with digitizing and/or splitting the ALM Spanish course.
Last edited by Tomás on Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mente&cervello
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Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:28 pm
Location: East Coast USA
Languages: Native English speaker. Target language Italian; not yet trying to write. Formerly fluent in French (ALM), Spanish (self-taught); employed in German (horrible course fr Brigham Young) but forget it all; Egyptian hieroglyphics (self taught text; forget it all).
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Re: Audio lingual language programs

Postby mente&cervello » Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:42 pm

Bon Soir, Peter Mollenburg,

I would urge you to consider buying just the course text for ALM French if the embarras de richesse is making you hesitate*.

For the audio portion, you could either (1) buy the records, or (2) use the target sentences in each chapter as a guide to making better use of a language exchange partner, or briefly-used tutor-- that is, record a native speaker saying them.

With your skills, I'm sure the rest would be sufficient. You could buy later; they are available.

Bonne chance,
Mente& cervello

* Not specific to language study, I would recommend to anyone a book called "the Paradox of Choice" by Barry Schwartz, a cognitive psychologist writing in clear, plain English about the cost in time, thought, stress, and dissatisfaction of a society that implies more choice is always better. Here is the TED talk; I haven't heard it but read the book, twice. http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz ... _of_choice
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mente&cervello
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Posts: 10
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Location: East Coast USA
Languages: Native English speaker. Target language Italian; not yet trying to write. Formerly fluent in French (ALM), Spanish (self-taught); employed in German (horrible course fr Brigham Young) but forget it all; Egyptian hieroglyphics (self taught text; forget it all).
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Re: Audio lingual language programs

Postby mente&cervello » Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:56 am

Salve Speakeasy,

(1) Grazie tanto for the recommendation about FSI FAST. I had looked at FSI and categorized it as "too many choices, not clear which, bookmark to check out sometime". Also the one I started with was horrendously slow, with overly simple sentence structure.

QUESTION: there is a choice of Italian FAST Original or Italian Fast Updated. Do you have a recommendation? And do I understand correctly that you are recommending I avoid FSI Italian Programmed Course and FSI Italian Head Start?

More about ALM, (from Modern Language Association, 1960s and 70's, US).

Speakeasy, feel free to paste this elsewhere if you start a more specialized thread about this form of ALM and think it pertinent.

(2) One of the biggest advantages of the audio lingual method: you learn the "melody" of the phrase or sentence. We have all heard people who don't do this, and it sounds awful.

Here in the US, I was once in a situation where I heard, on the other side of the room, a woman chatting away to her toddler. When I got closer several minutes later, I was so startled to realize she was speaking French that I unintentionally gaped at her. (I actually was so startled that I said, 'You're speaking French!' with obvious surprise. I was distressed at my unintended rudeness--but fortunately, she misunderstood and thought I was amazed at her fluency. Phew. She was quite "fluent" but it sounded exactly like English if you weren't attending to each word--and to a French-tuned ear,c'était vraiment désagréable).

(3) In ALM class, we were not allowed to take notes or hold a textbook until we had tuned our ears to trying to reproduce our teacher's phonemes. In fact, they took notes away from students who had scribbled a few the first day. The rationale, which I think is quite correct, is this: if your primary language uses the same alphabet as the target language, at first it is almost impossible not to unconsciously slide into the visual cue of the letter eliciting the same sound in your mind's ear, and in the motor pattern of your tongue. (Another reason I am not working much on written Italian at present.)

This was the other reason the woman chatting in French sounded like she was speaking English-- almost all phonemes were the American English sound that sort of corresponded to the French phoneme.

(4) I have found Pimsleur to be the best of what is currently available to me for being able to hear and speak at conversational speed, while also learning the "melody" of the phrase or sentence. Something I picked up from Pimsleur Italian that I have never seen formally described as a guideline: In English, if I were emphatically saying, "He's not here", I might put the emphasis on "not" (or, of course, I might stress "he" or "here" for a different meaning). In Italian, the word "is" is emphasized-- of all the places in English I might emphasize, that's the last one. Now that I noticed it, I hear it often.

So: in English, he's not here.
In Italiano, "non è qui".

(5) A core sentence I just remembered from ALM French, decades ago: "She thinks he's a pain, but she makes him brioche every day, anyway." We would memorize it exactly, to the point where it was effortless, then start substituting other words while maintaining the sentence structure.

When picking a direct object, an indirect object, verb tense or mood,after long enough I didn't have to think it through consciously. I didn't have to think: "wait, do I need the direct or indirect object? Ok, I think it's indirect, but what's the 3rd person singular indirect pronoun?"-- while my conversational partner walked away out of boredom. Instead, my ear just knew what sounded right; it aligned auditorily with the sentences drilled into my brain. The substitution practice was during in-class drills. That was what made it so flexible.

A presto, spero,

mente & cervello
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Speakeasy
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Re: Audio lingual language programs

Postby Speakeasy » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:05 am

mente&cervello wrote: QUESTION: there is a choice of Italian FAST Original or Italian Fast Updated. Do you have a recommendation? And do I understand correctly that you are recommending I avoid FSI Italian Programmed Course and FSI Italian Head Start?

Salve mente&cervello,

Thank you for your informative and entertaining post. As I am a little short for time, I will respond only to your questions, above.

As far as I understand, the two versions of the FSI Italian FAST course are identical as to content; however, there is a difference that is quite perceptible to the user. The course books are identical. The recordings that accompany the “Original” version are those that were digitized from the magnetic cassette tapes without being segmented into smaller sections to match the recorded pauses or the lesson notes. As a result, the sound files are about 25 minutes in length, and the user, desirous of locating specific sections of the sound files that are marked by recorded pauses or that match the lesson notes, must either develop a system for relocating the individual sections of the recordings or use a file splitter and separate the longer files into smaller sections. It would appear that some unsung hero downloaded the original files, split them into smaller sections matching the natural breaks in the lesson notes, and offered them to the administrator of the FSI-Languages-Courses website, who posted them as the “Updated” version.

It seems that, at some time in the early 1970’s, the senior staff at the FSI decided to experiment with the Programmed Learning Method of instruction. This yielded the very successful FSI Portuguese Programmatic course. If ever there was a “programmed learning work of art” for languages, this was it! In startling opposition, we have the FSI Italian Programmed Course. It remains, for me, the paramount example of how a reasonably sound approach to teaching can be so thoroughly misunderstood and misapplied as to result in the unwarranted discrediting of the original concept itself. What astonishes me most about this course is not that is so wretched, but that it was approved for publication by the FSI Senior Staff. If you have time to spare, I suggest that you complete the first ten units of this course and, when you have done so, explain to me how remembering “vowel 70” by this decidedly unusual designation helped you learn Italian. In fact, I dare you to complete this course … I double-dog dare you!

The DLI Headstart courses were published as language “orientation” courses for members of the U.S. Armed Forces and their families. They are well-conceived and enjoyable basic introductions to about 600 words of essential, transactional vocabulary for “linguistic survival” in a region where the target language dominates. I think of them as “tourist speak” courses and I suspect that the level achieved on completion would be less than A1. This does not make these courses worthless. On the contrary, it merely means that the DLI Italian Headstart course is not appropriate for someone who already possess an A1 or higher level of skill, as you apparently do.

I am neither a moderator, nor a referee, nor a police constable, and I certainly do not wish to be either presumptive or rude. Nevertheless, as this discussion thread was initiated to discuss "audio-lingual" materials, might I suggest that, if you are interested in pursuing the discussion of alternative materials, and particularly those for learning Italian, you initiate a separate discussion thread such as "Italian Resources" or some other, more evocative, title? Doing so would have the additional advantage of drawing recommendations from other forum members who might not be following this present discussion.

Ciao for now!

EDITED: Why should I learn type correctly when I have already learned to edit my typos?
Last edited by Speakeasy on Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Audio lingual language programs

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:22 am

mente&cervello wrote:Bon Soir, Peter Mollenburg,

I would urge you to consider buying just the course text for ALM French if the embarras de richesse is making you hesitate*.

For the audio portion, you could either (1) buy the records, or (2) use the target sentences in each chapter as a guide to making better use of a language exchange partner, or briefly-used tutor-- that is, record a native speaker saying them.

With your skills, I'm sure the rest would be sufficient. You could buy later; they are available.

Bonne chance,
Mente& cervello

* Not specific to language study, I would recommend to anyone a book called "the Paradox of Choice" by Barry Schwartz, a cognitive psychologist writing in clear, plain English about the cost in time, thought, stress, and dissatisfaction of a society that implies more choice is always better. Here is the TED talk; I haven't heard it but read the book, twice. http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz ... _of_choice


I really appreciate your response mente&cervello,

The only (yet strong) argument against me getting my hands on this material (with or without records) is that I own such a rediculous amount of French courses already it would be overkill. However humans being humans and me being me (am I suggesting not human?), we're not always rational by a long shot and I have a mania for (particularly with French) collecting and gathering a LOT of courses. I have really only chipped away at the edge of the immense pile of French courses I own as it takes MUCH longer to progress through them (particularly when one is a perfectionist) than it does to buy them! I had in fact largely 'switched off' from gathering more French materials successfully for quite a long time now, but when I come across such a thorough audio-lingual course like A-LM it's hard to hold back. I'm very keen to get my hands on this set, but for the time being I will hold back, and perhaps the right moment will present itself (which could arguably still be a silly move given my collection). The other set i'm keen on is Vocabulaire progressif du français/ Grammaire progressive du français which I actually opened a brief thread on asking others opinions on these materials. I'm equally keen to get my hands on this series. I think i'm discovering that the type of language learner I am I simply really enjoy courses and may always have some kind of a course at hand even when/if I might reach C2 level in a language and have no trouble with native materials. I couldn't think of anything worse mind you in English so I can understand why others simply want to 'use' the languages they learn and run for the hills at the sight of grammar books, language courses and audio-lingual style drills. I do believe I'll chase down the French A-LM materials, but not just yet.

mente&cervello wrote:
(2) One of the biggest advantages of the audio lingual method: you learn the "melody" of the phrase or sentence. We have all heard people who don't do this, and it sounds awful.

Here in the US, I was once in a situation where I heard, on the other side of the room, a woman chatting away to her toddler. When I got closer several minutes later, I was so startled to realize she was speaking French that I unintentionally gaped at her. (I actually was so startled that I said, 'You're speaking French!' with obvious surprise. I was distressed at my unintended rudeness--but fortunately, she misunderstood and thought I was amazed at her fluency. Phew. She was quite "fluent" but it sounded exactly like English if you weren't attending to each word--and to a French-tuned ear,c'était vraiment désagréable).

(3) In ALM class, we were not allowed to take notes or hold a textbook until we had tuned our ears to trying to reproduce our teacher's phonemes. In fact, they took notes away from students who had scribbled a few the first day. The rationale, which I think is quite correct, is this: if your primary language uses the same alphabet as the target language, at first it is almost impossible not to unconsciously slide into the visual cue of the letter eliciting the same sound in your mind's ear, and in the motor pattern of your tongue. (Another reason I am not working much on written Italian at present.)

This was the other reason the woman chatting in French sounded like she was speaking English-- almost all phonemes were the American English sound that sort of corresponded to the French phoneme.

(4) I have found Pimsleur to be the best of what is currently available to me for being able to hear and speak at conversational speed, while also learning the "melody" of the phrase or sentence. Something I picked up from Pimsleur Italian that I have never seen formally described as a guideline: In English, if I were emphatically saying, "He's not here", I might put the emphasis on "not" (or, of course, I might stress "he" or "here" for a different meaning). In Italian, the word "is" is emphasized-- of all the places in English I might emphasize, that's the last one. Now that I noticed it, I hear it often.

So: in English, he's not here.
In Italiano, "non è qui".

(5) A core sentence I just remembered from ALM French, decades ago: "She thinks he's a pain, but she makes him brioche every day, anyway." We would memorize it exactly, to the point where it was effortless, then start substituting other words while maintaining the sentence structure.

When picking a direct object, an indirect object, verb tense or mood,after long enough I didn't have to think it through consciously. I didn't have to think: "wait, do I need the direct or indirect object? Ok, I think it's indirect, but what's the 3rd person singular indirect pronoun?"-- while my conversational partner walked away out of boredom. Instead, my ear just knew what sounded right; it aligned auditorily with the sentences drilled into my brain. The substitution practice was during in-class drills. That was what made it so flexible.

A presto, spero,

mente & cervello


Interesting comments- and interesting story regarding the woman speaking to her child in French. I myself am currently likely in the B2 range of sorts with French and have spoken to my daughter since her birth only in French- she's almost 2. I am so thankful for my own perfectionism regarding accent and intonation. Although I see your point regarding audio-lingual methods for refining one's intonation, rhythm, tone and tonic stress, I do think all this can be learned with any language programs containing a decent amount of audio. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by audio-lingual materials as per your definition, so maybe the statement I just made also holds true from your perspective, but I know you're stating in part that A-LM itself makes for better success in these areas due to the style in which it is presented. I don't disagree necessarily.

The one point I want to make is that if people want to learn to speak a language and sound as close to a native as possible- it is possible imo to do so without such intense materials, you just simply should aim to mimmick and perfect EVERYTHING you are using to improve your spoken language, whether it be stopping and starting video with native content, using language courses, mimicking music, whatever, there should always be strong emphasis on understanding the phonics of the language in every single moment of study and subsequent production. Dropping the ball, and/or ignorantly associating one's native language with the foreign language will make one sound like the American woman speaking French who you discribed. How 'bad' one sounds could in many ways correlate to the effort one puts into perfecting one's accent as well as one's background and other such influences. French is French, in sound, as is Italian. One ought to become French or Italian when learning those languages. They aren't a variation of English or any other language, so we should learn to throw as much of that English (or other language) out the window and pick up a whole new sound system.
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mente&cervello
White Belt
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:28 pm
Location: East Coast USA
Languages: Native English speaker. Target language Italian; not yet trying to write. Formerly fluent in French (ALM), Spanish (self-taught); employed in German (horrible course fr Brigham Young) but forget it all; Egyptian hieroglyphics (self taught text; forget it all).
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Re: Audio lingual language programs

Postby mente&cervello » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:22 am

Hello Peter,

I completely agree that there are many ways to pick up the inflections, accent, and rhythm of another language. Et ta fille a de bonne chance d'avoir l'occasion d'entendre un accent français correct en sa jeunesse. (Peter's daughter is lucky to have the chance to hear a correct French accent in her youth.)

When I wrote about "ALM", I was writing about the Audio Lingual Method (A-LM) produced in the US by the Modern Language Association, for use in schools in the 1960s and 1970s. Speakeasy has independently gotten interested in this, and has kindly made available links to find these out of print materials. There are certainly many other courses and methods that draw on ALM theory in some form.

What I found uniquely valuable about the A-LM course was this: the complexity of the basic sentences we memorized, and the drilled substitution of other words into these sentence frameworks, gave me the ability to fluently construct a semantically complex, multiple-clause sentence "by ear". This included correctly conjugating verbs "by ear".

The method I was speaking about that led me to hear subtle differences in which word is subtly emphasized in a sentence is Pimsleur. It captures the way slight differences in emphasis and elision occur in conversation.

Finally, of course you are correct that the most important thing is to understand how you learn best-- which is connected to how you like to learn. I think that for many of us on this board, learning or perfecting a language is enjoyable as a process, not just as a means to an end.

If you are thinking about whether to purchase another course, perhaps the question for yourself is whether having another, new course will (1) inspire you to start again with a feeling of freshness, with slightly different emphasis, or (2) make it less likely to use ANY of them because there are too many choices. Only you can answer this. (For me, the answer is sometimes #1, other times, #2.)

Bonne chance avec vos études!

Mente & cervello (esprit et cerveau)
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Tomás
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Re: Audio lingual language programs

Postby Tomás » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:12 pm

kyukumber wrote:Here's a similar thread on HTLAL entitled "Audio-lingual courses besides FSI?."

And I'll list up the materials mentioned in the above thread.
[...]
Modern Spanish: A Project of the Modern Language Association


Has anyone here heard the recordings for this book? They are listed in the U of C catalog:

https://dma.uchicago.edu/collections/905
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Tomás
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Re: Audio lingual language programs

Postby Tomás » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:14 pm

Modern Spanish: A Project of the Modern Language Association


I have acquired this book through Interlibrary Loan. It is really, really good. It is a pure ALM textbook with all the expected pattern and substitution drills, but much better done than the FSI Basic Spanish manual. The grammar explanations are far, far superior, with many excellent observations about colloquial uses.

However, like FSI it is made for a classroom scenario. Drawbacks for independent learners are:

(1) You would probably need to also purchase instructor's manual. There are no answers to the exercises in the student book. I have not yet seen the instructor's book, so I don't know if it has the answers.

2) I have not been able to locate the recordings. Some libraries apparently have a single 7" LP that came with the book, but I believe it only has the pronunciation exercises. Recordings of the language lab drills are the holy grail, and I have not yet found a source or a library. Perhaps someone with superior googling skills than I can find it.

Given that the recordings appear to be unobtainable, I think FSI Basic Spanish remains the gold standard for ALM Spanish courses. If we could turn up the lab tapes for Modern Spanish, though, it just might beat out FSI.

There are also subsequent volumes entitled "Continuing Spanish", but I have yet to obtain one.
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Speakeasy
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Re: Audio lingual language programs

Postby Speakeasy » Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:01 pm

Hello, Thomás,

I have been following with keen interest your posts concerning the textbook "Modern Spanish: A Project of the Modern Language Association" and the course supplement manual "Dialogs for Modern Spanish: A project of the Modern Language Association". Copies of the former are still available on Amazon and AbeBooks; however, I have not been able to locate a copy of the latter.

As to the possibility of locating the audio recordings, as it happens, I sent an Email to the Modern Language Association late last week asking them if they might have copies of the recordings for the "A-LM" series and they replied that, if they did, the tapes would have been stored somewhere off-site; furthermore that they did not have the equipment either to play them or to convert them to some other medium. While they did not seem particularly enthused at the idea of recovering these materials, I offered to purchase them, digitize them, and donate a copy of the digitized files for conservation in their archives. I have not yet heard back from them. However, should I be able to pry loose a few of the "A-LM" tapes, I will submit a subsequent request for the "Modern Spanish: A Project of the Modern Language Association" audio files as well. Of course, you are at liberty to contact them yourself. LINK: ( https://www.mla.org/ )
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Tomás
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Languages: English (N). Currently studying Spanish (intermediate), French (false beginner).
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Re: Audio lingual language programs

Postby Tomás » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:11 am

I'll ask around and find a friend who is a MLA member and see if she'll put a request through for me. Maybe they'll be more responsive to one of their constituents.
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