The Emoji keyboard and multiple scripts

[zenmonkey]

Who said anything about travelling? Of course this isn't a reasonable solution if you travel a lot. If you thought that's what I meant by "far greater range of travel per key", I didn't - I was referring to how far a key moves when pressed.

The issue of multiple keyboard layout needs is one that many of us experience. So I was assuming you were proposing this as something that might actually be a reasonable solution.

This is a solution for desktop users with niche needs which aren't covered by simply switching to a different layout. Maybe your TL has a layout which uses a different key layout than the one used on your native keyboard and you want to get used to using it. (For example, UK keyboards have more keys than US ones and they are laid out differently, so are not directly compatible layout-wise, let alone those used in other languages.)

Sure, sometimes you need another keyboard. I've yet to meet the language learner that needs to learn multiple keyboard layouts, but why not, wild hypotheticals aside. But in reality most keyboards are based on 3 physical standards - ISO, JIS and ANSI.

Maybe you need to type a lot of text using a mixture of two scripts where cycling layouts would be tedious.

I did exactly this, for years. I don't understand how hitting one key to switch from x - y is more tedious than that death-star flight-deck contraption.

Maybe you simply want to add something like a numberpad and set it up as dead-keys to give easier access to numerous diacritics. Maybe you want a shortcut to some commonly used composed characters (for example, I understand text entry using Chinese characters can be a pain - adding a small keyboard of shortcuts might take some of the edge off). Maybe you're using a script which has more characters than a standard keyboard can reasonably accommodate alongside punctuation etc. Maybe more than one person uses the computer and they need/want to use different keyboards (for whatever reason). There are any number of reasons why one might want to do something like this.

Sure - there are. There is even an entire industry of programmable keypads. I've used them for CAD/CAM driving.
But, in most cases outlined, related to language learning, programming a keyboard to data capture and conversion isn't what I would recommend.
Like I said, the video your posted IS interesting - but, not to belabour the point, it isn't what I'd recommend as an approach to language learning.

That is the entire point of this post! Tom Scott was able to set up 14 keyboards on one computer, each of which types a different set of characters without switching layout. Hence, he built has a functional (if somewhat unwieldy) Emoji keyboard. Maybe it is a hassle, but that doesn't mean that it is never the best or easiest solution.

I meant that physically switching from one keyboard to another - moving the keyboard out of the way (dang it where is that Tibetan keyboard?) is the hassle. Or I can build a desk that looks like a church organ (but I can't put my work material anywhere...) The layout switching is not the issue. Programmable function keys!

As a user of UK keyboard I'd much rather use UK Extended, which is what my custom layout is based on. Anyway, you seem to have missed the point of my post. This isn't (just) about finding a way to type characters not available on the standard layout of one's keyboard. That's (relatively) easy and what changing layouts is for. This is about using multiple keyboards which trigger different inputs without switching layouts, for whatever reason one might want to do so.

Surprisingly the title of the thread is multiple scripts. I thought it was about that. Given that the site is about learning languages - it is reasonable to also give a response to effective tools that exist and work without hours of programming.

That's fine. This isn't for you then. I wasn't posting this as a one size fits all solution.

But were you posting a one size fits any solution? Has anyone actually used this in language learning?
It's cool and all.
Maybe you can try it and build this full Japanese keyboard.


The Emoji keyboard is a piece of art yet even the author recognises the ridiculousness of it.

Here is a challenge about that solution - how about outlining how you would build that multiple keyboard device (and whether it works on Win 7, 8.1 or 10...on multiple software packages such as Office, Open Office or a few Web-browsers) using the tools he outlined:

- autohotkey
- luamacros

Feel free to get input from Tom or Petr Medek (LuaMacro developer) to get this solution there.

[Alphathon]

The issue of multiple keyboard layout needs is one that many of us experience. So I was assuming you were proposing this as something that might actually be a reasonable solution.

It might be, but obviously if you do a lot of travelling even taking an extra keyboard with you when you can make do with other solutions is impractical. However, if your computer is tied to a desk and therefore you don't move it anywhere it becomes much less ridiculous. With my current desk layout, I could probably accommodate a second keyboard on my desk fairly easily without having to move anything significant (maybe my pen jar - not really a big ask) and still have room to put my work. Moving it in front of my primary monitor may be a bit awkward, but then I haven't set up my workspace with that in mind. (One could for example fairly easily put the "main" keyboard on the desk and the second on a keyboard tray.)

I've yet to meet the language learner that needs to learn multiple keyboard layouts, but why not, wild hypotheticals aside. But in reality most keyboards are based on 3 physical standards - ISO, JIS and ANSI.

I cannot comment on the standards part as I simply don't know enough. I'm aware that most European keyboards use an ISO standard keyboard but beyond that I don't know. I assume ANSI is the US standard and JIS is Japanese? Maybe this is a problem that doesn't need solving. I just threw it out there as one possible reason off the top of my head.

I did exactly this, for years. I don't understand how hitting one key to switch from x - y is more tedious than that death-star flight-deck contraption.

That seems to be a bit of a straw-man, although probably not intentionally. I do not foresee (m)any people using 14+1 keyboards concurrently (as used in the video), but rather one primary and one secondary. If nothing else I dare say it's easier to learn to type when one can actually see what the keys do, and not everyone can touch type. I've used computers for most of my life but still can't quite (I still need to glance down every few seconds to get my bearings). Throw in a different key layout (say, moving from ISO to JIS) on a keyboard with no native characters and you may be in trouble. An overlay would solve this problem, but assumes an overlay is available for your keyboard and language. (Also, dang it where is that Tibetan overlay? ) Stickers would work too, but many people don't want to put stickers all over their keyboard. To be fair, given the technical know-how required to do something like this the set of people who can't type well (in their native language) but who could actually pull this off is probably tiny.

Like I said, the video your posted IS interesting - but, not to belabour the point, it isn't what I'd recommend as an approach to language learning.

Fair enough.

Surprisingly the title of the thread is multiple scripts. I thought it was about that. Given that the site is about learning languages - it is reasonable to also give a response to effective tools that exist and work without hours of programming.

Sure, that's fine. I posted this thinking "maybe someone out there wants to connect two different keyboards to computer so they can use two scripts concurrently, and if not, someone may come up with a clever solution to one of their own problems using one or more of the constituent ideas". Are there better solutions in many/most cases? Sure. Keyboard overlays is one of them (which admittedly I wasn't aware of prior to posting this). still, someone may find it useful.

That's fine. This isn't for you then. I wasn't posting this as a one size fits all solution.

But were you posting a one size fits any solution? Has anyone actually used this in language learning?

I don't know if anyone's used it. Certainly, since Tom only posted the video on the same day as I posted about it here, I doubt anyone's used his method yet. That doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be used. Again, maybe this will be useful to someone. Note how I phrased it: "… this might actually be useful for those who type in multiple languages which use different writing systems." Maybe in practice it wouldn't be; I don't know as I haven't done it. I'm not saying "here's a really good way to type in multiple languages". I just wanted to let people know so that if they wanted to give it (or something like it) a go they could.

It's cool and all. Maybe you can try it and build this full Japanese keyboard. The Emoji keyboard is a piece of art yet even the author recognises the ridiculousness of it.

Much of the ridiculousness of it comes from using 14+1 keyboards though, and a lot of the rest from the fact that they are used to type Emoji (rather than something "useful"). It probably isn't even the best possible way to achieve what he did - as he says, it's a bodge. Still, even getting people thinking "Huh, I never thought of using AutoHotkey like that" may be of some use.

Here is a challenge about that solution - how about outlining how you would build that multiple keyboard device (and whether it works on Win 7, 8.1 or 10...on multiple software packages such as Office, Open Office or a few Web-browsers) using the tools he outlined.

Sounds like a reasonable challenge, but one that I cannot reasonably take on at the moment. Currently I have little need for one and have too little time to spend on it as a hypothetical. I may do something like this at some point, maybe to create the IPA keypad I discussed earlier, but I simply have too little free time at the moment to put into it. From the description in the video it doesn't actually sound that difficult once you know what you're doing. Tom seems to have created this in a day or so and I think the biggest hurdle was actually figuring out how to do it rather than actually doing it. Edit: Thinking about it you probably just meant "how would you go about it". If so, I cannot go into any more detail than Tom does in the video - I do not know Lua and only have a passing familiarity with AutoHotkey, so would have to do a bit of reading on that first.

[Serpent]

Um I assume you know that many "European" keyboards have at least slight differences
I generally can't deal with more than one layout per alphabet.

[zenmonkey]

Um I assume you know that many "European" keyboards have at least slight differences
I generally can't deal with more than one layout per alphabet.

Does something specific in the posts suggests their either of us isn't aware of the issue?
I would think that understanding is the core of the question.

To Alphathon last post:

I appreciate the post - and the extent of the conversation.
For a two keyboard solution - I'd still go with a control key switch rather than hours to days of research/programming. But if someone wants to investigate ... the links are there.

As to how to work with shortcut - perhaps you do raise the need for a simple guide on doing this. If I have a moment I might put something together for mac/PC - particularly that some rare scripts are a personal dada.

[Serpent]

I've yet to meet the language learner that needs to learn multiple keyboard layouts, but why not, wild hypotheticals aside.

I was referring to this.

[zenmonkey]

I've yet to meet the language learner that needs to learn multiple keyboard layouts, but why not, wild hypotheticals aside.

I was referring to this.

"in the same language" is the missing element, that I didn't put in place. - taking in the context of the conversation.

My Mac, has a different layout than my PC - and I've used UK and English keyboards but the mind is sufficiently flexible that I don't need a US keyboard in the UK - muscle memory figures it out in a few days. Nor do I need to use a Mac keyboard for my PC.

Of course the French vs English, etc... keyboards are different - hence the thread.

[Zireael]

I am looking for a free virtual keyboard software with Russian, Arabic and Japanese support.

I have learned the Arabic layout, but I can't grok the Russian layout (and neither can my mum who knows Russian), so a virtual keyboard would be awesome just as a visual help.

[Serpent]

You can use a phonetic layout for Russian.

[Iversen]

I have mostly been using the keyboards at Lexilogos, but now I have also tried out the Greek keyboard at Google translate and succeeded in writing "ελληνικά", and afterwards I have also tried Russian and Serbian in Google T. The result is however that I'll stay with Lexilogos because its virtual keyboards in most cases give me the characters that correspond to similar letters on a Danish keyboard. Like when pressing the s key gives me σ, which changes into ς at word endings. But in some cases there isn't a key, or the key isn't found on Danish keyboard. For instance you should press the ž key to write ж in Serbian ... well, I don't see that key on my keyboard. But I prefer that to having all the Cyrillic letters bungled up as in the Google translate virtual keyboards, which presumably follow the Cyrillic keyboard setups of Windows. If I press my physical s key while I'm in Google translate I get ы. For some reason I don't find that option attractive - I would prefer getting a 'с'.

In spite of my misgivings I see no reason to change my keyboard setup when I have got those two sites at my disposal.

Btw Lexilogos also supports things like Arabic and Hebrew, and it has a mechanism for Chinese where you start out writing your words in pinyin - smart! I wrote "pin" in the box and then the program gave me some Chinese signs to choose from:

Lexilogos.jpg