Rosetta Stone - Love / Hate

[fiolmattias]

I borrowed Arabic level 1 from the local library when I started arabic several years ago. I had really fun clicking on all the pictures and I really thought that I was learning something.
Then I took an evening course for beginners and I told the teacher that I had done Rosetta level one. He then tested me, and I couldn't produce anything understandable at all. When he said a few basic words I could could recognize a few of them (pen, table...) but I couldn't produce anything.

For me personally the evening course gave me so much more in just a few weeks than Rosetta did in a couple of months.

[emk]

I have a theory about why Rosetta Stone is so popular in the US (and maybe in some other mostly monolingual regions).

Imagine, if you will, a random US resident who wants to learn a foreign language. None of their friends or colleagues have learned a language, except for maybe one person who spent a year in full-immersion in Sweden and "just picked it up", and another who was served in the army and received training at the Defense Language Institute. So how does our hypothetical language learner pick a course? Well, they can't ask their friends for advice, because "go to high school in Europe for a year" and "enlist in army" both seem like overkill. So our student is left to pick out a product on their own, and they say:

"Hmm, there must be a good course for this. What do I want?

1. I'm happy to spend money on a quality product. Usually there's at least one somewhat expensive high-quality product in each market?
2. I studied conjugations in high school for three years, and never learned to carry on a conversation. My friend who went to Sweden learned "naturally," so maybe that would work better?
3. It seems to me that we're living in a computer age, and surely it must be possible to improve language learning by using computers somehow?
4. It's probably safer to choose a popular option, because big sales might not guarantee it's good, but they must mean something, right?"

OK, now imagine that's your background, and those are your buying criteria. Now walk into a US bookstore, and look for something matching those criteria. See that big shelf of expensive yellow boxes that make up 40% of the bookstore's language materials? See the advertising copy on the back about computers and science and learning like a child? Yup.

This process would play out the same way if Rosetta Stone was amazing or if it was garbage. The key problem is that the US contains relatively few successful adult language learners, so most people can't just ask three or four polyglot colleagues how they did it. All they can do is walk into a bookstore and look for something that looks convincing. And sometimes I think the publishers could even leave the last 80% of the course blank, because their customers get discouraged and give up.

This is one reason why I admire language bloggers (even the occasionally overenthusiastic ones, and the ones who are hyper-focused on their own personal method), and one reason why I like this community so much. We need more language learners who talk about what works and what doesn't if people in mostly monolingual areas are going to have any chance of picking good techniques.

[neofight78]

I used Rosetta Stone for getting started in Russian, and I think it is a good choice especially for someone who is learning their first language. Here are some of the highlights for me:

• You can practice speaking without the embarrasment and stress of somone else listening in.
• The listen and repeat aspect is great for developing good pronunciation.
• The moment when your brain naturally puts 2+2 together to figure out the meaning of a word or some grammar is pretty cool and effortless.
• You end up remembering stuff without realising you are "memorising" stuff.
• When you progress on to the online lessons, the teachers are super supportive and encouraging.
• Your progress is measured and you get "achievements" so that you feel like you are getting somewhere.
• All the marketing, despite being baloney, gives you faith that learning a language is possible (in contrast to one's experience of school)

Overall, I think it provides a "safe" and supportive environment for those who are just starting out, especially if they feel self-conscious or have doubts about whether they can actually learn a language or not. Sure there are plenty of negatives too, but I think experienced learners tend to be over critical of the product IMHO. I don't have any regrets about my purchase, in fact I am grateful for the good start it gave me.

[pir]

I bought a Rosetta Stone course because I was lured by the technology. See, I'd already worked on computer-assisted (language) instruction decades ago, and I thought we actually did pretty good work back then, even though the technology was rudimentary at that time. Surely that had gotten a lot better since? I was curious in how far things had improved

Turns out, not so much -- sure, instead of a centralized mainframe, we all use PCs now, and instead of custom-cut records on custom-built hardware that can be accessed only by custom-designed software, we have CDs and DVDs that can be read by any computer, given the software company was smart enough to develop their stuff cross-platform. But some of the things neofight78 pointed out, had been big selling points for our original CAI as well. Aside from what emk said about why people choose these courses, I think these are all important factors for the continued success of Rosetta Stone among inexperienced learners of languages:

• People really like working with computers because learning a language makes you easily feel a fool; the computer is non-judgmental. You can repeat things without a real teacher or classmates knowing how slow you are.
• Going at your own pace is ever so much more attractive than having to adjust to somebody else's pace. Any time of day or night, the computer is ready, patiently waiting.
• Active interactivity engages a lot of folks.
• Bright and attractive interface beats dry and boring textbooks.
• Some form of automatic repetition system works better for memorization than what most people come up with on their own.
• Clearly measured progress allows you to feel a sense of achievement.
• Speech recognition, even when rudimentary, is an incredible boost for one's self-esteem. And it's actually useful even if it's not particularly great -- it gets you to speak out loud. If you have any sense of judging your own performance, even if the speech recognition sucks, you will get something out of hearing yourself.

Now, Rosetta Stone's pedagogy doesn't work for me at all, because I am not a 4 years old child, and I don't want to return to learning like that; I am much faster now and more efficient. Also pictures are not the same as mnemonics; RS uses pictures. Honestly, in 1978 we did more with what a computer can do than Rosetta Stone seems to even dream of; I could weep. Why does everyone invent a new, square wheel instead of building on previous achievements?

[Cavesa]

[*]Your progress is measured and you get "achievements" so that you feel like you are getting somewhere.

Thanks for sharing a positive experience, I'd say many of the points could apply to various learners and it's good to know about them. However this one is a catch, in my opinion. Far too many products are much more focused on making you feel like you are getting somewhere instead of actually getting you there. I'd say combine that with a bunch of alse promises of the end level, and you are right where you started. With lots of people who have invested their time and efforts but haven't actually learnt enough.

I clicked too early, sorry about edit, don't wanna add another post right away:
an important question: How far did RS get you?
Could you get by in Russia? Or read an easy book? Or did you try an exam of any kind? I m sincerely curious, since you are one of the learners who have actualy succeeded to learn with RS, which is quite rare, and all the success stories on the internet appear to be just false marketing.

[Polyclod]

All the marketing, despite being baloney, gives you faith that learning a language is possible (in contrast to one's experience of school)

I'm not trying to be rude, I promise but...did you read what you wrote there before you posted it? I mean, is spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars on something as inefficient as Rosetta Stone really justified in your opinion because it "gives you faith"'. I guess personally I don't have a high opinion of "faith", since it almost always stands opposed to reason. Wouldn't it be more reasonable for a beginner to save time and money by purchasing a program that would actually give them a solid start in a language? Wouldn't that be a bigger confidence booster?

[Cavesa]

I wonder: why is motivation supposedly such a problem when a beginner uses normal, good quality resources?

Is it RS making you do easy stuff only, so you believe you are better than you are? Or is it some kind of gamification (similarily to Memrise for example)? Or do normal courses just have bad reputation because of all the teachers and schools involved in massive failure of majority of the population?

[neofight78]

For your average monolingual person living in a monolingual country, speaking a foreign language is like some kind of mystical power. People tend to think that it's necessary to be extremely gifted at languages or to live in the country. Combined with an off putting and ineffective education in school, must people file learning a language under the "impossible" heading. I cannot overstate how much self doubt there was when I began, and to be honest it's only 3 years later when I'm B1 going on B2 that I've finally managed to shake off that feeling.

The two biggest obstacles are getting started, and keeping going beyond a few weeks. So whilst it may seem daft to an experienced learner, that encouragement and sense of "getting somewhere" is pretty critical, even if the amount learned is perhaps less than what you could achieve with other methods or products. So in a way, I feel your questions are the wrong questions to ask. I am grateful for RS, not because it taught me everything I know about Russian, but that it got me started, gave me confidence, established the learning habit i.e. the foundations that allowed me to get where I am now.

As I progressed in my Russian, I began to add things to my learning routine, and eventually they took over and I dropped RS. But had I started with these other methods and tools and I don't think I would have got very far at all. Although in reality I would have never considered them.

[pir]

Faith does not have to be opposed to reason. I have faith I can learn a foreign language well even at times when it seems an interminable slog and I feel too stupid to live -- because heck, I've done it before. Reason says I can do it again, confident belief (faith) in my continued abilities and trust in my potential to succeed if I work hard enough pulls me through when I feel low.

The first time I ever do something, I need a certain amount of faith that I am a capable human being. The first time I try something again after I originally failed at it, I need a bit more faith. It's not the kind of faith that flies in the face of logic, if anything, it is faith in logic and reason, faith despite the nasty little voices in my head that tell me I am too old, and my depression is too debilitating now.

So if Rosetta Stone gives somebody faith in their abilities after they had originally tried and failed, no, that's not all bad. If the bright and happy interface with the nice pictures makes them feel better and have more fun, then that's not bad either. We do know that people who have more fun learn better, stick with things for longer. If the money they spent motivates them not to drop the course, that's ok too; whatever gets you through the night. Ok, so it's inefficient and costly -- if somebody can afford the time and money, and other resources simply scare them or don't attract them at that point, what's the problem?

I strongly dislike that RS targets people who actually can't really afford it. But people who have money to spend? Go ahead, spend it. If it gets you started, more power to you.

[Soclydeza]

I personally like RS. I've used it for German and am currently using it for French. Let me start off by saying that I got my copies from a friend, so cost was not a factor. I've also only used it for Eurocentric languages, here is my pseudo review:

First off, it is not "the only thing you need to learn a language" or "the ONLY way to learn a language" (or whatever their little slogans are). Perhaps people that spend the money and buy it thinking these things are true find themselves disappointed, but I'd think most of us who learn languages for a hobby know to look past this kind of marketing; there is no one-stop shop, no single program that will get you there.

With that aside, let's look at it for what it really is. It's essentially a beefed up progressive flash card system with pictures and a few mediums of interaction. If you like Duolingo or what Livemocha used to be (I understand the irony that RS bought them out), it's a very similar principle, only that RS is a big name so there is a big responsibility to make sure that the content is grammatically accurate.

You can learn a whole lot with it without hearing a word of your native language...up to a point, then we see its major downfall. The lack of grammar explanations can be extremely frustrating, especially for a first-time learner, but this brings me to another point: RS works better as a supplementary program, you still need something else that will teach you grammar, other vocab and perhaps colloquial phrases. I think the main problem people have is that they use RS as a primary program, which I don't blame them since the marketing claims they can use it alone. But if you're a seasoned language learner and know when you're dealing with certain grammatical aspects (even if you don't yet know how they work in the TL), keeping a grammar book near by can be a very good method for learning.

Another point I'll defend RS on: I've seen countless posts by people (not necessarily on HTLAL but all over) saying things like "It's useful if you want to know how to say 'the ball is on the table'". First off, that kind of stuff is in the very beginning, so when someone uses that kind of stuff as a symbol of its uselessness, it tells me that they never got far in the program to really see what it has to offer. Second, people tend to take the content a bit too literally and not realize what RS is actually trying to teach them; in this case, the use of prepositions. This is just one small example, but people tend to tear the program apart based on these kinds of misunderstandings of the content.

Personally, I think it's a great tool, easy to use, the content is not overly complicated (assuming you have other resources to refer to when you get stuck) and a lot can be learned with it, provided that you use the program properly and don't just expect the information to magically be implanted into your brain, but this goes for any program. Is it an absolute must-have? Languages have been learned without it and will continue to be learned with or without it, I just find it to be a good tool for learning vocab and familiarizing/practicing grammar structures.

Now let's bring the price back into it....

Last I checked, I think you can get all five levels for something like $4-500 (maybe more?). While this may seem like a lot of money, think of how much you would spend getting to the same level with college courses (I think RS takes you to somewhere around B1). On the other hand, knowing what I know now about language learning, if I didn't get my RS copies for free I could think of much better uses of that money that would take me a lot further.

In short: I wouldn't buy if it I had to pay for it, unless I had the money to burn. But if you can get it for free (or have money to burn), I think it's a great tool. I just don't understand why it gets such bad press, it's a tool like anything else.

Just my zwei Cent.