Pacing of FSI

[Madrox]

Hi all! I briefly started learning German a few years ago, but that project got sidelined when I decided to finish up an engineering degree that I'll be completing next month! Now that I'm almost done with school and gainfully employed, I'm hoping to renew my language studies. My current plan is to listen to Pimsleur German again to get me back up to speed. I then plan on combining Assimil with the University of Michigan self-learning program they have on their website. I'm a very organized person who needs structure, so I appreciate UMich having videos and resources on their website aimed specifically at German self-study, and I've already bought a used copy of the textbook they work through. I think having both the grammatical structure from the UMich program and the more passive learning of the Assimil program might serve me well.

My question is about FSI though. I plan on starting it after Assimil is over, but I'm not sure what my pacing should be. Assimil will obviously be one lesson a day or so, and the UMich website has a good schedule laid out as well, but FSI seems to lack clear instructions. I've read a lot of different takes. Some websites say that each unit is 3-5 hours of study time, some say 10-12. Some logs in these forums say they do one unit a day, one unit a week, one unit a month. Is there a general consensus on roughly how long a unit should take? I tentatively plan on spending around 30 minutes-1hour a day doing FSI drills and possibly doing a unit per week, but I'm very open to amending that if it's unreasonable. I'll obviously play it by ear to see what's working for me when I get there, but I'm the type of person who needs to do a good bit of planning to ensure I stay motivated in self-studying, so any sense of FSI pacing you could give would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[Lianne]

I just started FSI French Basic, and unit 1 took me 3 hours and 15 minutes. That's just a bit longer than the total length of the audio. (The amount of audio per unit is not consistent so I imagine my time spent per unit won't be, either.) I did that spread out over two days.

I think a lot depends on how familiar you already are with the grammar (and to an extent the vocabulary) being covered in a unit. There was nothing really new for me in unit 1, so reading the grammar sections was really quick and easy, and the drills were only mildly challenging. I suspect that when I get to units with more challenging grammar, it will take me longer to learn the material, and I may have to repeat the drills.

I think the other major factor affecting time required is your tolerance of drills. Personally I rather enjoy them, but there's still a limit on how long I can do that kind of work in one sitting. Someone who doesn't like drills would have a lower threshold.

The pacing I've heard is two lessons per week, which seems reasonable to me, so that's what I'll probably aim for.

[jeff_lindqvist]

Not every FSI course is alike, but the German course is said to take 24 weeks. That's two volumes with 12 units each, one week per unit (up to 8 hours per day). See also my reply in sfuqua's topic The outstanding tourist multi-tracks.

[Speakeasy]

Pimsleur German
As to your plan for “getting up to speed” via Pimsleur German, I would suggest that you go no further than Pimsleur III, and perhaps no further than Pimsleur II, before switching to Assimil.

Multiple Introductory Courses
I am not familiar with the University of Michigan’s self-learning program; however, as you will be getting up to speed with Pimsleur and then progressing to Assimil, I find myself wondering just how relevant this additional study would be to your advancement. Many self-learners (myself included) fall into the trap of repeating the basics through the review of an endless series of introductory courses. I agree that studying multiple introductory-level courses will help solidify your grasp of the basics and that you will learn ‘something’ that was not covered in a competing introductory-level course. Nevertheless, in my experience, the repetitive study of the basic concepts and vocabulary that are common to most introductory programs will not move you into the intermediate level … only the study of intermediate-level materials can do that.

FSI German Basic: Pacing
I agree with much of what Lianne and Jeff_Lindqvist have had to say on pacing, particularly as you will have already completed Assimil German. That is, you should be able to complete two-units-per-week of the first half of the FSI German Basic course without much difficulty (I suggest that you skip the first two units altogether). While you might be able to maintain such a pace throughout the second half of the FSI German Basic course, it is likely that you will find some units rough going and, in such a case, I would suggest that you attempt one-unit-per-week and adjust your pace according to your own sense of progress (you might even find that some units require two weeks).

Next Steps
Afterwards, assuming that you will be continuing in a self-instruction context, I recommend that you embark on an extensive/intensive reading programme, videos, television, et cetera. If you can fit in a (good) tutor, so much the better.

Addendum: Grammar
The Pimsleur Method, in lieu of addressing the grammar of the target language in a straight-forward manner, requires that the student infer the L2 structure from the examples provided. While this approach has its strengths, in the case of German, it has the weaknesses of assuming that the user will make the correct associations which “govern the cases” and that he will be able to distinguish the “case endings” which are not, in fact, always clearly pronounced or otherwise emphasized. In contrast, the Assimil Method provides notes which purport to explain the major grammatical features which are deployed in the dialogues. Unfortunately, these notes often seem to have been written for the benefit of someone who already possesses a sound grasp of the L2 structure. For this reason, I frequently suggest that one keep a “simple” grammar of German at hand when studying these two courses. I recommend: “German Verbs & Essentials of Grammar”, 2nd edition, by Charles J. James (https://www.amazon.com/German-Essential-Grammar-Second-Essentials/dp/0071498036/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=German+Verbs+%26+Essentials+of+Grammar&qid=1558652660&s=gateway&sr=8-1) I suggest that you refrain from referring to a more in-depth grammar until you have reached the intermediate-level of your German studies; otherwise, you will run the risk of being drawn down a “rabbit hole” of definitions and examples for which you will not yet have been adequately prepared.

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Addendum
Typos
Stylistic changes

[sirgregory]

I have been studying German for a month now, starting from zero. I started out with Duolingo. After about a week I added in some bilingual reading with audio. Then I picked up a Living Language coursebook for some basic grammar. I have also done two of the FSI units. It seems like a very comprehensive, rigorous course with lots of audio. I think I will focus more on the Living Language book for now (I'm already about a quarter through it). But I will do a couple of FSI audio files per week and then ramp up (to maybe two units per week) as I get toward the end of the Living Language book.

FSI throws a lot more at you than a typical course, and the audio drills can be tough. But what is ingenious about the drills is that they are active in the sense that they require you to do more than just repeat. Yet they manage to do this all in the target language without needing to give you any prompts in English.

[Madrox]

Thank you all for your help! I think for now I'll tentatively plan on one unit per week, and try to play it by ear from there. This forum is an amazing resource for people interested in broadening their horizons and learning new languages and ways of thinking. I really, really appreciate everyone's kindness and willingness to help out a newbie like myself.

[sirgregory]

Multiple Introductory Courses
I am not familiar with the University of Michigan’s self-learning program; however, as you will be getting up to speed with Pimsleur and then progressing to Assimil, I find myself wondering just how relevant this additional study would be to your advancement. Many self-learners (myself included) fall into the trap of repeating the basics through the review of an endless series of introductory courses. I agree that studying multiple introductory-level courses will help solidify your grasp of the basics and that you will learn ‘something’ that was not covered in a competing introductory-level course. Nevertheless, in my experience, the repetitive study of the basic concepts and vocabulary that are common to most introductory programs will not move you into the intermediate level … only the study of intermediate-level materials can do that.

FSI German Basic: Pacing
I agree with much of what Lianne and Jeff_Lindqvist have had to say on pacing, particularly as you will have already completed Assimil German. That is, you should be able to complete two-units-per-week of the first half of the FSI German Basic course without much difficulty (I suggest that you skip the first two units altogether). While you might be able to maintain such a pace throughout the second half of the FSI German Basic course, it is likely that you will find some units rough going and, in such a case, I would suggest that you attempt one-unit-per-week and adjust your pace according to your own sense of progress (you might even find that some units require two weeks).

Speakeasy, I have been reading some older threads and I saw you had made some relevant comments here:

https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... php?t=8897

If you were to add FSI to that comparison, do you think it's fair to say that all 24 units of FSI would be basically equivalent to all the other "first-stage" and "second-stage" course combos? Maybe a little more, particularly with speech activation?

[Speakeasy]

Sirgregory, am I to be hoisted on my own petard? Rhetorical question only. There are numerous discussions on the HTLAL and the LLORG concerning the CEFR level which can achieved through the completion of the FSI Basic courses (and other courses in the series) which date from the period of the 1960’s to the 1970’s.

There is no doubt in my mind that graduates of the FSI language programmes achieved a level of CEFR B2, if not slightly higher. That is, the materials necessary to achieving such a level are present. Should the FSI Basic courses be considered “equivalent” to the combined first-stage and second-stage Assimil, Linguaphone, and Living Language Ultimate courses? I agree that, in terms of overall coverage of the basic structure of the L2 and of its high-frequency vocabulary, the two sets of courses are “nominally” equivalent. However, I would say that the sheer compositional richness of, and the greater variety of, the sentence-pattern drills and other exercises of the FSI German Basic course provide more opportunities for practice. So, from this perspective, the two sets of materials are “not quite” equivalent.

I doubt that the average independent language-learner (who must apportion their time to numerous activities, many of which are as conflicting as they are non-negotiable) would be able to use these materials to their full potential. In my view, while some outstandingly perseverant individuals (there are several forum members who possess the necessary qualities) would be able to achieve a level of CEFR B2 through the independent study of the FSI Basic courses, many users would lack either the necessary time or the sheer stamina to “stick it out” and would likely achieve something within the CEFR B1 area. CEFR B2 is a much harder nut to crack in a self-instruction situation than many people realize … uh, er, meiner Meinung nach (a figure of speech drilled into my soul through the study of Pimsleur German III).

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Expansion of the text.

[Flickserve]

Sirgregory,



I doubt that the average independent language-learner (who must apportion their time to numerous activities, many of which are as conflicting as they are non-negotiable) would be able to use these materials to their full potential. In my view, while some outstandingly perseverant individuals (there are several forum members who possess the necessary qualities) would be able to achieve a level of CEFR B2 through the independent study of the FSI Basic courses, many users would lack either the necessary time or the sheer stamina to “stick it out” and would likely achieve something within the CEFR B1 area. CEFR B2 is a much harder nut to crack in a self-instruction situation than many people realize … uh, er, meiner Meinung nach (a figure of speech drilled into my soul through the study of Pimsleur German III).

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Expansion of the text.

And lack social support in their immediate environment. Seeing the guy next to you working on his drills and improving or having a motivating instructor (or both) encourages yourself to work harder.

[sirgregory]

Thanks for the reply, Speakingeasy. No hoisting intended, haha.

Your experience with all these courses provides very useful data. I learned Spanish abroad, so I didn't much have to worry about this plateau problem with intermediate courses. But I can already tell it will be an issue with self-studying German.