Absence of "Tu" in FSI French

[nj24]

I began my French language journey this March and have finished the FSI French philology course and now am working my way through the first volume of the FSI French Basic Course (just reached Unit 6). I am quite surprised and a little bit disappointed by this course after hearing so many good things about it and how it is often considered one of the best FSI courses out there. To be clear, I love the FSI drill format and completed all four levels of FSI Spanish. However, this course just doesn't seem to match up to the FSI Spanish course. In that course, each dialogue was part of a bigger story about a family that moved to a fictitious Latin American country. In FSI French, the dialogues are rather boring and very formal. So formal in fact that the "tu" form isn't even taught! I thought surely that the they must be saving the "tu" form for a later chapter, but no. It looks like it never appears, not even in the second volume. I'd love to hear thoughts from anyone else who has used FSI French. What did you think of this course? What courses did you use to learn the more informal register? I am planning to stick with it, but keep on wondering whether the "tu" form isn't used as readily in French as it is in Spanish and Italian? (Also fear that it will make me too comfortable using "vous" when I should be using "tu").

Wanted to note that I am also working through a copy of Assimil New French with Ease (the "tu" form hasn't been introduced yet either, and I have already completed over twenty lessons). Duolingo and Pimsleur have been slightly more helpful.

[tastyonions]

That's an interesting choice on their part. I never made it more than a couple of lessons into FSI French for the exact reason that you cite: the dialogues were extremely boring to me.

Assimil will have plenty of "tu" forms in store for you.

It seems to me that Spanish-language customs for "tu" depend a lot on the country, varying from very widespread use (Spain) to pretty sparing (Colombia, for example). I often hear radio hosts "tutear" guests even on serious radio shows from Spain whereas that is rather rare to hear in France. I think French customs for "tutoiement" are close to the "stricter" side of the spectrum of Hispanophone ones.

[nj24]

It sounds like Assimil will be a nice complement then. This is my first time using an Assimil course. So far I am enjoying it for reading practice and reinforcing the grammar, but I find that the FSI drills are better at helping me memorize sentence patterns and master pronunciation.

Thanks for that info about French customs for "tutoiement". I've barely ever used "usted" when speaking Spanish here in the U.S. For example, in a Spanish restaurant, I would probably use "tu" if speaking to a waiter. But not sure if that would be seen as impolite in a French restaurant? I am assuming at least that addressing my French neighbor with "vous" would be too formal. I guess I am thinking from the point of view of one my Spanish speaking friends who told me it may be seen as rude/condescending to use "usted" unless it was an extremely formal situation. American social situations tend to be pretty laid back though, and I'm not sure how that applies to French spoken here. However, when I have the opportunity to travel to France, I will be sure to use "vous" unless talking to friends.

[tastyonions]

Nah, you will always use "vous" when speaking to waiters and anyone else you interact with only in the context of them doing their job. For the most part "tu" is reserved for friends, family, and small children.

[Arnaud]

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[garyb]

"Tu" is also fairly common in informal social situations like bars, parties, concerts, etc. amongst young people, even who don't necessarily know each other. I'd say it's often more about the context than whether you know each other. A lot of learners use "vous" in situations like that and it comes across as a bit awkward and unnatural. But that's something you get a sense for after a lot of exposure to the language; the standard advice for beginners is "if in doubt, use vous", as it's better to risk being slightly awkward than being rude.

It's true that the formal form is much more common in French than in Spanish and Italian. I leant French first, and then I got a bit of a shock when I first went to Italy and shopkeepers and waiters addressed me as "tu" straight off the bat. As tastyonions says, in France they stick to "vous" in these kinds of polite interactions.

I was put off FSI French because the language seemed very formal and old-fashioned. My logic was that if I was going to do drills, I should at least do drills for language I'll actually use. I'm happy to hear that the Spanish one is a bit more interesting and varied, since I plan to use it sooner or later.

Assimil's New French with Ease has modern language in a variety of registers.

[sctroyenne]

I came across some tutoiement and some vouvoiement in surprising instances: interning at the French consulate where everyone tutoyed (it felt wrong) and working for a family as an au pair where the mother still vouvoies me. Then a French tutor that went back and forth all the time, an Alliance française teacher that vouvoies me even outside of class and on Facebook while the AF director tutoies me...you get the idea. Also, when I worked in France tutoring some kids in English I got some back and forth from the parents as well (I guess the line with teachers is still blurry so these situations can still feel uncertain). Though I've found that I'm using vous a lot more lately since I'm interacting more with couples, families, rock bands (just the one time so far), etc.

If you do like particular drills, though, but they always have you practice with vous you can just go through them with tu to get the practice. Same thing with replacing nous with on - you won't use nous very frequently in spoken French.

Nah, you will always use "vous" when speaking to waiters and anyone else you interact with only in the context of them doing their job. For the most part "tu" is reserved for friends, family, and small children.

+1...and your pets

And God apparently, which I found a bit surprising. Though I was also surprised when I learned that "thou" was the informal "you" in English so I guess it makes sense.

[emk]

I am planning to stick with it, but keep on wondering whether the "tu" form isn't used as readily in French as it is in Spanish and Italian? (Also fear that it will make me too comfortable using "vous" when I should be using "tu").

Vous is the default between adults in France, unless you're family or unless you've been invited to use tu. There are exceptions: If you work for a hip Internet company, if you're young and in certain social contexts, if you're participating on an internet forum, and so on. The French humor site Topito has a funny list of other situations where tu is the default: when in prison, when swearing at bad drivers, when joining the Communist Party, when carrying on drunken conversations at the urinals in a bar restroom, and so on. Assimil's Business French also claimed that there was once a tradition of tutoiement between the alumni of certain universities, regardless of age, but suggested that the tradition was disappearing. (I did manage to find one modern reference to this by a recent graduate named Olivier Faulque, who attended Arts et Métiers ParisTech.) And the rules are different in Québec, which is generally more informal in these matters.

There's a pretty funny flowchart for English speakers in the LA Times, which also gives you the basic idea.

The closest analogy I can think of in English is the idea of "being on a first name basis." You can't just call a total stranger "Bob" unless you're invited to do so (except sometimes you can, depending on age, profession and context). But if you use "Bob" when you should have said "Mr. Smith", it can be pretty serious social gaffe. Better to use "Mr. Smith" until he says, "Please, call me Bob." FSI students are diplomats, or embassy staff, or security personal, or sometimes spouses of the above. I'd imagine that they're probably pretty safe sticking to vous in the beginning. In English, none of these people would default to using first names with strangers.

However, like sctroyenne, I do think that most French courses spend too little time on practicing on (as compared to nous). As far as I can tell, it's pretty much the default spoken form in many situations.

[James29]

Is that really true that the informal form is not taught at all in FSI French? Or, am I misunderstanding the original post?

[Ogrim]

After seven years in France I still sometimes get unsure about when it is appropriate to use "tu", but as others have said, "vous" is the default between adults. After that, the use of "tu" between e.g. colleagues will depend on individual preferences and to some degree on age. I have the following set of rules I try to stick to:
Always use "vous" when addressing strangers, like waiters, taxi drivers, hairdressers, shop attendants etc. (And although you go to the same "tabac" to buy your newspaper every day and you chat with the guy behind the counter, he still remains a stranger.)
Never say tu to your elderly neighbour.
With French-speaking colleagues, use "vous" when introduced and only switch to "tu" if they suggest to do it.
Always say "tu" to young children. If they are well behaved, you can expect them to say "vous" to you. (But I don't get offended if a 5-year old says "tu".)

As regards family, it is true that "tu" is the common form, although it is not so long ago that children would say "vous" to their parents. And I know a youngish couple where the woman addresses her mother-in-law with "vous". They come from quite a bourgeois background though, so that might explain it.

EDIT: As regards the FSI course, I don't know what year it dates from, but as far as I know some 40-50 years ago "tu" was used even less than it is today, and was really reserved for man and wife or parents speaking to their children, Back in the 1950s the French even said "vous" to God.

Regarding the use of "on" for "nous" it is so widespread that you see it quite a lot in written correspondence as well - maybe not in formal texts or letters, but certainly in e-mail exchanges between colleagues or with clients, so yes, new learning material should really introduce this feature of French at an early stage.