Absence of "Tu" in FSI French

[Speakeasy]

Sorry, but I simply cannot resist adding my own comments to this discussion thread, particularly the closing anecdote.

I came across the FSI Basic French course many years after having moved to the Québec hinterland, where I learned the language in a full immersion setting. When I discovered the FSI-Languages site just a couple of years ago, along with the HTLAL Forum, I regretted that I had not been aware of them many years prior as they would have been of immense use and succour to me.

I support the remarks of other commentators to the effect that the FSI Basic French course was issued in the 1960’s, a time when the “standard rules of social interaction in France” would have required the use of “vous” whereas “tu” was reserved for relationships that are more intimate. Hence, it is quite understandable that the American diplomatic staff, who were the target audience for the FSI Basic French at that time, would have been drilled in patterns of more formal speech. I would not be surprised, though, if the current version of the FSI French language programme were to include more exposure to the informal, or more popular, form of French speech.

The social changes of the 1960’s and 1970’s that swept America had an almost immediate, as well as massive, impact on Québécois youth culture. As far as I can tell, there was a time lag before an equivalent effect became apparent in France. Nonetheless, the effects seem to be widespread and permanent. Here in Québec, the increasing use of “tu” was accompanied by a popular “egalitarian movement” amongst the youth, who eventually became today’s adults and who are now becoming the province's seniors. Among the many social/cultural changes wrought were the eventual “social requirement” that school children address their school teachers by their first names and that everyone use the familiar “tu” form at school and, eventually, outside of school. While exceptions exist, it is not at all uncommon for perfect strangers to use this form throughout Québec.

Anecdote: You’re going to find this very difficult to believe but, a few months ago, a highly-respected editorialist for the Montréal newspaper “La Presse” expressed his surprise and indignation that this particular linguistic and cultural phenomenon had devolved in the “required use” of “tu” by teachers when addressing groups of first and second year school children. Apparently, here in Québec, it has become the accepted pedagogical belief that requiring children younger than 9 years of age to deal with both “tu” and “vous” is simply too confusing and stressful. Consequently, teachers are required to address children collectively as "tu" and employ wide, circular, arm movements to indicate that they are referring to a group! Having read the editorial, the Québec Minister of Education wrote a rebuttal claiming that “scientific studies” supported the Ministry’s policy and that she, the Minister, regretted that the editorialist –- who was not a professional educator -- had not communicated with her prior to publishing his article, as he had missed an opportunity to be brought up to date on the latest theories in linguistics and pedagogy. Uh, I guess the Québec Minister of Education must be right … the authorities are always right, right?

[Polyclod]

I'm actually kind of sad that the FSI French Basic Course isn't as thorough as the Spanish course. The Spanish course is, IMHO, probably the best course FSI has done and I'd even say it's the most comprehensive course available for learning Spanish. It covers so much...so many little details that you notice as you get further and further into the language.

That said, I use FSI courses after I have a base in the language, and I almost never bother with the dialogues since they are pretty boring. For me, the grammar drills are what make FSI worth their weight in gold. But I am still surprised that tu never appears in FSI French. I mean, FSI Spanish even includes a section on vosotros forms, which are only used in daily speech by a tiny fraction of the Spanish speaking world. But at least it's there for you to learn in case you need it!

As an aside, I have rarely if ever been addressed with vous. Pretty much everyone I've talked to from France has started off right away using tu. I don't know if the people I'm talking to are just weird, or maybe it's because they're young (20s and 30s), or who knows, but I'd second the advice of using Assimil as your base, you'll see plenty of tu (and the use of on).

Shame about FSI though.

[Cavesa]

I cannot see why people treat "vosotros" as something rare. Is there a different meaning than normal plural of "tu", that everyone is refering to? As plural, it is standard and normally used in Europe. Spain isn't what I'd call "a tiny fraction" of the Spanish speaking world. A fraction yes, but not tiny.

Tht Quebec change for plural "tu" is totally stupid, sounds like the authorities are trying as much as they can to make kids, and therefore future adults, dumber and dumber all around the world. It should be exactly the opposite, children need to experience these things thorough the years, so that they are proficient later. Following this logic, children shouldn't be required to learn to read and write because it might be difficult for some of them

Polyclod, I think your experience is influenced by meeting young people, as you say. Of course young people are gonna use "tu" immediately, unless a specific situation requires otherwise (perhaps a very formal business meeting or something like that). Hard to tell at which age it changes, most probably around the age people tend to leave university, I've been already addressed "vous" by quite young people as well (but perhaps I look old). But if you meet older people as well, the traditional standard usully applies. You are not a child, you are gonna be addressed "vous", unless the person is really much older, much more important, or totally rude.

[tastyonions]

Spain is about one-tenth the world's Spanish-speaking population, yes. It's not that the vosotros-using population is small, exactly, but it is extremely circumscribed geographically, so if you have no particular plans to go to Spain or make friends with Spanish people, there is not really much use in learning it, at least not actively, though I suppose you can if having another conjugation to remember is something that excites your interest. :-)

[Cavesa]

It's funny how this forum is America centered at times. It is one tenth but for a large part of the world, the 1 tenth is much easier accessible than the other 9 tenths. Vosotros is not a worse alternative than vos, for many people and situations, it is exactly the opposite. I wouldn't look down on european Spanish.

Especially as Spain is much more important and culturally prolific than many of the individual hispanic coutries. If you just take a book originally writen in Spanish, or a movie originally in Spanish, you have a good chance to encounter vosotros as well.

[basica]

I think the numbers do sorta matter if you're looking at spoken interaction so it's not necessarily an American focus at play here. In Europe you're perhaps more likely to encounter Spaniards (which makes sense considering its proximity), but even in Australia where we're far away from both sides of Spanish speakers, I have encountered far more South American speakers of Spanish than Spanish speakers from Spain. Probably 20 fold more.

[Polyclod]

It's funny how this forum is America centered at times. It is one tenth but for a large part of the world, the 1 tenth is much easier accessible than the other 9 tenths. Vosotros is not a worse alternative than vos, for many people and situations, it is exactly the opposite. I wouldn't look down on european Spanish.

Especially as Spain is much more important and culturally prolific than many of the individual hispanic coutries. If you just take a book originally writen in Spanish, or a movie originally in Spanish, you have a good chance to encounter vosotros as well.

[Polyclod]

It's funny how this forum is America centered at times. It is one tenth but for a large part of the world, the 1 tenth is much easier accessible than the other 9 tenths. Vosotros is not a worse alternative than vos, for many people and situations, it is exactly the opposite. I wouldn't look down on european Spanish.

Especially as Spain is much more important and culturally prolific than many of the individual hispanic coutries. If you just take a book originally writen in Spanish, or a movie originally in Spanish, you have a good chance to encounter vosotros as well.

It's about numbers. There are now more Spanish speakers in the US than Spain. Spain accounts for about 10 percent of the Spanish speaking world, and it's only in that one country you'll hear vosotros. Of course Spain is important, all Spanish speaking countries are, but the numbers say that the future of the language is now in Latin America and increasingly in the US as well.

[Speakeasy]

The Quebec change for plural "tu" is totally stupid, sounds like the authorities are trying as much as they can to make kids, and therefore future adults, dumber and dumber all around the world. It should be exactly the opposite, children need to experience these things thorough the years, so that they are proficient later. Following this logic, children shouldn't be required to learn to read and write because it might be difficult for some of them

MOUSE RIGHT-CLICK: SARCASM "ON"

Ma foi, Cavesa, comment pourrais-"tu" tenir de tels propos? Mais voyons ma fille, nous parlons là de la position « officielle » du Ministère de l’education!

Your point concerning the "logic" of the educational system demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the latest developments in pedagogical theory and practice. Have you lost your senses? Here, in Québec, we have chosen the enlightened path of "advancing" students from one-year-to-the-next irrespective of their actual examination results; to do otherwise would be to incur the risk of causing students to bear the shame and stigma of failure!

Furthermore, we are (apparently) not concerned that, as recently reported by this same Ministre d'éducation, the majority of Québécois francophone graduate students in Pedagogical Sciences, who wish to teach French, cannot themselves pass a standardized French test (INSERT: this not part of the sarcasm; this was actually reported by the Minister responsible). Really, you are setting standards far too high and, without wishing to seem too critical, might I suggest to you that you are displaying an elitist attitude towards matters of education?

MOUSE RIGHT-CLICK: SARCASM "OFF"

[Polyclod]

The language may have originated there, but like every other colonial language, it has spread and flourished far beyond its country of origin.

I have some of the DELE materials, and of course vosotros comes up. But native speakers aren't usually taking the DELE. Any good Spanish teaching material will mention vosotros briefly. It's not a hot potato, it just isn't ever used anywhere else except parts of Spain. And even then, someone who speaks Spanish from Latin America doesn't need it, I have heard Latin Americans and Spaniards converse...one uses vosotros, the others respond with usted. That's like telling an American if they're going to spend time in England they have to start adding u's to their words

And it is indeed ironic that we Americans are becoming a bilingual nation. Believe me, there are older WASPy types who aren't happy about it at all, and I can't help but laugh. The writing is on the wall, and honestly I'm glad Spanish was compulsory for me in school.