Language Transfer (Split from discussion in Programs and resources)

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Language Transfer (Split from discussion in Programs and resources)

Postby Random Review » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:24 am

David1917 wrote:
A worse example is the Russian course. One of the learners on there cannot roll the R, and instead uses some weird half-French R in Russian words. Even though you hear the instructor speaking "properly" - you still get mixed input at a stage where what you hear should be getting very well-tailored.


Ah, the new courses. Thomas would correct stuff like that. The ones made after his death do not follow his method (although they claim they do). I have so often lamented that there was no Michel Thomas or Language Transfer Mandarin course when I started out, it would have helped me so much. Yet this wish may surprise you, because there is a "Michel Thomas Method" course, but that's a very different animal. I don't recommend the new courses nearly so much.

David1917 wrote: Even different native accents are better to hear than someone trying to speak the language for the first time. Moreover, in these courses the amount of target language is pretty minimal, so I'm very skeptical of thinking that it gives a "phonemic map" as much as an "exposition to the new sounds you'll have to learn elsewhere"


In fact I know for sure that the first few times round, the local (Chinese) teachers did a much better job teaching that distinction than I (a native) did, to the benefit of our students at the time. My pronunciation of English is better than theirs was; but they had a more accurate phonemic map of that part of GA or RP* phonology. Similarly, I once saw a native teacher of US English (so he had this distinction in his speech, he was just totally unaware of it consciously) demonstrate an activity that ostensibly involved sorting words into two target sounds but in fact was confusing as hell to learners because it really involved 3. He was totally unaware that the vowel in "book" and the vowel in "food" are different, even though as a native he produced these both absolutely perfectly. None of the local teachers would make such an error, because they all knew this distinction and could pronounce approximations even if not as accurately as he could.

It's like comparing apples and oranges: if you are practicing pronunciation in the sense of hitting the sounds almost perfectly, IMO a native is almost always better; if you are learning phonological patterns or being corrected on them, the best teacher is the best pedagog, regardless iof whether they are native or not. Neither Thomas nor LT teach pronunciation in that sense.

After finishing a course from LT, you'll know that there is a phonemic distinction between certain sounds, approximately how to pronounce them and have them linked to meaningful distinctions. Actually nailing the sounds is a different process that takes far longer and requires hours of hundreds of hours of exposure to native speech.

David1917 wrote: You're right that basing one's learning off of these courses would be a mistake. However, the "average learner" is going to succumb to marketing and think that they only need ONE method, since they all market themselves as being COMPLETE, etc. It is with this in mind that I think having learners on the recording is detrimental, and it would be much more beneficial to have a group of natives explaining the language back and forth, and of course to transition to a higher ratio of TL:English.


Here I'll split Thomas and LT up. Where Thomas is concerned, I totally agree, but the only solution is to make the marketing more truthful. The method simply doesn't work the same way without a learner on the audio unless you have a teacher who can correct you personally. Correction is an integral part of the method and since you can't be corrected personally, hearing the learner on the audio being corrected is the only way to provide it.

With LT, I don't think Mihalis misrepresents his courses the way Hodder and Stoughton do Thomas's.


* in case some people don't know, GA = General American and RP = Received Pronunciation, which are the two recognised standard pronunciations in China (and probably other countries too).
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby Iversen » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:35 pm

With all due respect (and we can't have enough of that) I would agree that you can't build a correct phonemic map of a language if you never hear it spoken correctly. On the other hand random_review has a point: you can be native and a teacher, but still teach things which are plainly wrong when tested against your own pronunciation. You can also be a native teacher who can speak correctly yourself, but aren't capable of identifying systematic errors or suggest valid corrections to a pupil. In that case a nonnative teacher with better factual knowledge and a reasonably good pronunication might be a better choice. Or seen from the other side: you could in principle be a star pupil who can pick up the correct patterns in spite of bad explanations, or a heavy learner who can't learn/discover the phonemic system of a language even when presented by a good teacher with an impeccable pronunciation.

I have never listened to MT or the other audio courses mentioned above, but to me it seems contraproductive to spend time listening to people with a rotten pronunciation. And this unfortunately also is a problem with the linguistic education you get in a standard classroom, which is infected with classmates at the same dismal level as you (or lower). As for the use of English I also find it irritating to hear explanations in English (or in my case Danish) if I could have understood the same thing in the target language. But you have to be at a certain level to understand such explanations, and until then it is simpler faster to give explanations in a wellknown language. But not to the extent that most of the time goes with explanations in your mother tongue..
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby reineke » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:55 pm

reineke wrote:A young Michel Thomas. I really hate it :) The explanations may be of help to English speakers. Thanks for sharing.


I skimmed through the messages to make sure this is the guy. Random, the old MT = (in some cases) a threefold helping of poor pronunciation. The new MT courses include a native speaker. The Advanced course in Japanese was OK but it didn't feel very advanced.
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby David1917 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:21 pm

Iversen wrote:With all due respect (and we can't have enough of that) I would agree that you can't build a correct phonemic map of a language if you never hear it spoken correctly. On the other hand random_review has a point: you can be native and a teacher, but still teach things which are plainly wrong when tested against your own pronunciation. You can also be a native teacher who can speak correctly yourself, but aren't capable of identifying systematic errors or suggest valid corrections to a pupil. In that case a nonnative teacher with better factual knowledge and a reasonably good pronunication might be a better choice. Or seen from the other side: you could in principle be a star pupil who can pick up the correct patterns in spite of bad explanations, or a heavy learner who can't learn/discover the phonemic system of a language even when presented by a good teacher with an impeccable pronunciation.


I've mentioned in other threads that there also exists a certain camp of uncritically assuming any native is the best possible teacher, a case that is seen especially in English schools in East Asian countries that recruit literally anybody from the US/UK to "teach." It's a bit of a straw man to use this argument against the criticisms of the poor accents to emulate on these types of courses. Nobody has said, "it should be a native with a weird dialect who understands nothing of pedagogy" but rather, some good pedagogy regardless of the source should be accompanied by clear native speech. There should also be more TL than any of these programs offer.
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby SGP » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:46 am

CompImp wrote:
Random Review wrote:

Of course, as you say, you don't have to defend your views to me; but if you don't advance any arguments in support of your views, how can anyone reading your review fairly judge it and how can we have a discussion that doesn't go around in circles (which TBH it has started doing)?
Come on, mate: you know that even if you are right and the people who like LT are all wrong, it can't be as simply and obviously worthless as you assert for the simple reason that we include quite a few successful learners. So maybe it is worth explaining why you think we're wrong.


Even though i did give reasons, i don't really have to. It's not possible to learn any actual language from a non-native with poor pronunciation and a lesson mostly in English.
Whatever I (yes, me, not you ;)) would think of some aspects of the language teaching methods of Mihalis Eleftheriou colega a.k.a. "Mr. Language Transfer", I couldn't deny that he really does strive very hard to contribute to spreading polyglottery. That having said, without any doubt, there are some possible disadvantages of making one's first steps with e.g. French by listening to any audio course made by a non-native.

But on the other hand, how does anyone know that it "isn't possible to learn any actual language [sic] from a non-native with poor pronunciation and a lesson mostly in English"? As they say, "speak for yourself". If anyone would state that they cannot do it, or that they don't know any possibility of doing so, this greatly differs from, well, claiming that nobody is able to do it, and that as a matter of fact, it simply is impossible to do so.

Also, even if listening to any non-native course really would be, automatically, not helpful on its own, it still could be combined by some supportive materials, whatever they might be.

In addition, some might differ on what learning a language / any subset of it really means.
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby SGP » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:18 am

CompImp wrote:You're missing the point.
Not really a surprise to see yet another post of a particular person starting with something like this. Now I'd like to tell you something. As for me, I am not perfect at all or anything. But still, I do simply love (L-O-V-E) the idea of life-long learning. This also includes improving certain aspects related to my personality [I am speaking about myself], or my way of posting, etc.

It's completely stupid to seek out and waste time with these sort of substandard, extremely poor resources when you can literally turn on youtube from any device and any country on the planet and hear native speech instantly, and for free.
In case you would have a good point (and as for the case of LT, I don't really agree with you), did you ever consider the possibility of others being convinced more easily by choosing another way of expression, other than "this is completely stupid" and so on?

You're basically saying it's better than doing absolutely zero but then you're advocating that someone who wants to learn plumbing should use an expensive book with tonnes of missing pages and wrong information when they have a qualified plumber stood there willing to show them for free.
Now that is called putting words into someone's mouth... :roll:

Nonsensical, as in, your reasoning (and others ITT defending this shockingly poor product) makes no sense whatsoever. The people who don't seem to see what this language transfer thing really is are bordering on sycophantic imo.
What shade of meaning of sycophantic are you referring to exactly?

[dictionary.cambridge . org] wrote:(of a person or of behaviour) praising people in authority in a way that is not sincere, usually in order to get some advantage from them:
There was sycophantic laughter from the audience at every one of his terrible jokes.
In case you mean something like this, then I'd just like to let you know that I am not an appeaser or someone who tries to please just everyone, or anything like that. When I wrote what I wrote, I had several other things in mind. Including, but not limited to, the possibility of Mihalis himself reading posts like these. I don't know him on a personal level. But I do know that he spend a very great amount of his time in the previous years on LT, being close to beyond exhaustion. Also, he seems to be open to constructive criticism. But if I was him, I wouldn't really prefer to read comments like ... those of a certain person ... . On the other hand, I'd be always happy to read anything that would give me some useful impulses I haven't had yet.

There is zero need or point wasting time and energy and money on these terrible sub-par products that do nothing pedagogically but only exist to get a slice of the language learning business pie. It's the reason so many similar flashcard apps exist. They do nothing different to the others they just want that sexy tasty language learning dollar.
As for me, I did use his Spanish / Swahili / ____ course, but not in the way that was intended by him ;). Instead, I listened to them, sometimes pushing the pause button in order to think of an response, and then I would recall the answer only, without saying anything. And in some other cases, I listened to his courses as a Thinking in That Language Practice. I did sense = realize = see some real results, so I am one of the persons who had a personal learning experience because of these very courses.
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby SGP » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:25 am

CompImp wrote:No i do though think it's very strange that a forum about language tries so readily to control what people can or should say.

The last time i checked an English dictionary it was a valid and acceptable word. I refuse to let people like you try to coerce me into changing the way i speak when i'm not personally attacking anybody, i'm simply criticising ideas.
If this was a private conversation between me and you only (theoretically...), I probably already would have quit it by now. But since it is a public one, I continue, at least for now, as long as it makes some sense. For the record: I am not trying to coerce anyone to do this and that, as I mentioned in a post just yesterday.

If you feel offended on behalf of an idea then i can't help that. I know you feel the need to post a billion messages on here but nobody asked you to respond and criticise my posts.
You "know" something about me I don't know myself. Interesting :roll:. In reality, it is as you said, except that it needs to be turned 180°. In other words: it is the other way around. I recently had some conversations with some people on this forum about how to make posts that are more / even more meaningful. Whoever is interested in reading about that (not addressing you, btw.) could do so @ the Language Lab Log, pages 4 and 5. At the same time, I also was talking to some persons about not making as many posts as I used to do for a (rather) short time, when I replied to a not-so-small number of language learning strategy threads and so on.

Yes, you didn't ask me to respond to your posts or to criticise them. But sometimes I would still reply because Language Matters Matter. However, I didn't forget either that there also are things we agree upon. You did point out something very significant to me about the meaning of having learned or not learned some vocabulary.

Now, what really happened here was i objectively analysed the Language Transfer course and found it to be worse than useless. I have then since been circled on by sycophants of the course who don't think anyone should be allowed to call something outright terrible but should instead sugarcoat and be friendly because the course was made by a human who has feelings, despite the fact that he's neither a member of this forum nor reading this post.
Did you ever consider thinking of the following?

- Speaking about the efforts of anyone (no matter who he may be) of the polyglottery community in that ("rather extreme") way could cause some unwanted side-effects, like unnecessary verbal battles between some of us?

- What if persons with a different learning method than yours are able to benefit from some of his courses, or if they even were able to advance a great deal with their target languages by the means of his learning materials? Maybe there are others out there who, just like, e.g., me, aren't able to think in some certain linguae that easily yet. So if they read "reviews" (well, sort of...) like yours which describe his materials as "worse than useless", that can prevent them from even considering the very possibility of looking at them. But we "need" much more polyglots than we "have" today. In case you, CompImp, would decide to reply to this post, I'd be really happy if you wouldn't overlook these quotation marks that aren't there without a reason...

- He may or may not be a member of this forum. I don't know, and neither I suppose you to really know it. The same for himself reading or not reading these posts. In addition, even if he wouldn't read them, other LT activists/supporters could do so, and then he could get to know this and that. Because of some reasons, including but not limited to his self-described previous Workload Overkill (not his literal words AFAIK, but he still did state, basically, the very same thing), I still do prefer if his work wouldn't be described in a certain way. Greeks (also including Greeks from Cyprus of course) could have a different attitude towards comments like these sometimes.

And while I don't do anything actively that really is some support for his project (for whatever reason/s), I, personally, wouldn't like either to cause anything to happen that would bring it closer to full stagnation. If enough people would write comments like those of ... a particular person ..., maybe one day, he also could fully quit, I don't know. There already were some/many experiences in the past, related to active anti-supporters, as he mentioned in one of his videos. Like, e.g., those who promise to do some help with proofreading or anything, but then they wouldn't do it. Side-note: This isn't about people who neither do anything actively that supports his projects, nor do anything that actively anti-supports them. So it isn't about persons like, e.g., SGP ;).

And as for me, personally, I avoid speaking to just anyone offensively, except in a very few rare cases maybe (when there is no other remaining possibility because of a major reason). But at the same time, I also avoid any Shallowness-Based Non-Authentic Faux Style Sugar-Coating. However, I do utilize some others flavors of sugar-coating every now and then. None of them involves any lying and stuff. One of them is that Spice Blend that could cause people to be more receptive, and to be able to listen to what one would like to tell them more easily. It also did work for me more than just once or twice in the past when someone would give me some advise of one kind or another. In German, we use to say "Der Ton macht die Musik". Literally, it means "the tone makes the music".
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby Philipp » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:04 pm

For what it’s worth. I listened to two episodes of the German course and his German accent is good. At times even great, that is native-like. There were some problems with the vowel length in certain words, but it wasn’t consistent.

IMHO, if a German learner can get their pronunciation to that level after a 10-hour course, good for them. That’s a solid foundation to build on.
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby zenmonkey » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:38 pm

I’ve heard the argument that having both a native accent and a non native (learner) accent helps differentiate and reinforce the learning process for improving pronunciation while allowing also for initially better hearing of language.

I truly don’t know how true that may be.

What I have experienced is that MT like methods with mixed pronunciation work well for the learner with little experience in language learning. Being able to “correct” the learner on the tape is a positive experience for some hesitant learners.

I’ll continue to recommend these early on as a fast intro. No memorization, work through them, get a sense of the language and move on. In my eyes, MT like material makes for good intro.
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Re: Language Transfer

Postby Random Review » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:43 pm

Iversen wrote:With all due respect (and we can't have enough of that) I would agree that you can't build a correct phonemic map of a language if you never hear it spoken correctly. On the other hand random_review has a point: you can be native and a teacher, but still teach things which are plainly wrong when tested against your own pronunciation. You can also be a native teacher who can speak correctly yourself, but aren't capable of identifying systematic errors or suggest valid corrections to a pupil. In that case a nonnative teacher with better factual knowledge and a reasonably good pronunication might be a better choice. Or seen from the other side: you could in principle be a star pupil who can pick up the correct patterns in spite of bad explanations, or a heavy learner who can't learn/discover the phonemic system of a language even when presented by a good teacher with an impeccable pronunciation.

I have never listened to MT or the other audio courses mentioned above, but to me it seems contraproductive to spend time listening to people with a rotten pronunciation. And this unfortunately also is a problem with the linguistic education you get in a standard classroom, which is infected with classmates at the same dismal level as you (or lower). As for the use of English I also find it irritating to hear explanations in English (or in my case Danish) if I could have understood the same thing in the target language. But you have to be at a certain level to understand such explanations, and until then it is simpler faster to give explanations in a wellknown language. But not to the extent that most of the time goes with explanations in your mother tongue..


I wouldn't dispute that Michel Thomas's course would have been better if he had had better pronunciation, mate. I think that's undeniable. To be fair to him, he learned his languages way back long before cassette tapes and when even gramophone records were a novelty; but it does constitute a weakness. As you say, the ideal would be a native who is also a good teacher; but in fact that isn't currently available. The question is whether (as asserted by some members) it is pointless or even counterproductive to do the course and for many people the answer is no. I for one still think these courses (both the Thomas's and LT's) are amazing things that teach you. Let me tell you why.

Most "courses" are actually just resources. They don't actually teach you anything, the good ones are resources that can be used to learn. Most of the people on here found their own way to work with them and managed to do that; but it's worth remembering that the vast majority of people who start their first L2 as adults actually fail with these things. To see what makes these courses worthwhile, that fact really can't be emphasised enough. These courses try to actually teach you and to evaluate them fairly, you have to consider what they are and aren't designed to do.

The first thing is that they are designed to be short: in both Thomas's case and LT's the length is something around 15 hours. I would argue that if you are spending more than an absolute maximum of 30 hours (ideally a lot less!) going through it, you are misusing the course. You will indeed risk a bad accent if you end up spending, say, 100 or more hours with Thomas for a given language. Mihalis usually has an OK pronunciation, but obviously he isn't native.

The second thing is that they won't take you beyond A0 and moreover (this is the thing that a lot of people can't wrap their heads round) they aren't designed to! They are designed to set you up in a position where you can successfully go on to learn the language. In a relaxed and painless way, you will understand how the basic grammar patterns of the language work and have a good idea of its phonology. This means that you leave knowing what to look/listen for in your learning. This is so, so important for people learning their first L2. So many people become "colour blind" (to use Lancelot Hogben's colourful analogy) to certain points of grammar and pronunciation early on and feel overwhelmed and confused by other difficulties that (at first) seem to make no sense. It's a big part of why most people fail.

The third thing is that the courses are compromises (2 compromises actually*) and necessarily have to be. A key part of the method is the feedback loop of trying to formulate a thought, getting guidance and then thinking it through again to produce something correctly. The simple fact is that to do this with audio files it means you need to have a learner on there and so you will hear other people's mistakes. As I said above it's a feature not a bug. If you approach the course as a resource, then you will look at the resource as being the correct sentences uttered by the teacher and be dismayed by the non-native accent, the presence of so much L1 and (worst of all) learner mistakes on the audio. And you'd be right to be dismayed by that if you approach the courses as resources. But you'd be looking at a cat and wondering why on earth anyone would want such an obviously terrible dog. It isn't a dog, it's a cat and has to be judged as such. These courses aren't sentences or translation exercises, all the action is happening in that feedback loop.

Now, just as some people don't want a cat, this process is not useful for everyone. In particular I can't imagine someone like (to randomly pick a member who I greatly admire) Iguanamon getting much out of these courses. As such an experienced learner, he doesn't need this initial guidance and his independent personality means I would bet quite a lot that he prefers to discover things for himself. A lot of the members on this thread are somewhat successful learners and also don't need this initial guidance, but find it a useful and enjoyable shortcut at the absolute beginner's stage and so quite like these courses. I think most people on this site would fall into these two categories and that's just fine.

However, there's a third category of people who never learned an L2 before and don't know how to go about it. The vast majority of these people will fail and end up thinking they have no aptitude for languages and it is these people LT is most for and it is these people who will benefit immensely. Can you speak Greek or Swahilli or Spanish after finishing an LT course? Nowhere near; but you will and that is very important.

So yes, I find it upsetting when certain experienced learners (not you) look at these courses, don't even make a sincere effort to understand what is going on in them and confidently proclaim to all that they are worse than useless based on criteria that (while not totally irrelevant) are not the important criteria, because I have in my head an image of people learning their first L2 who would really benefit a lot from these courses, reading reviews like this and deciding against them.







* the second compromise is that the learner on the audio is usually much weaker than most people on here will find useful, in some cases to a level that starts to get annoying. Given that the very people who most need these courses are not at all as knowledgeable or experienced as most members on here, I hope it is obvious why this has to be so.
Last edited by Random Review on Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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