How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

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Bluepaint
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Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby Bluepaint » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Rdearman has explained it to you already.

This thread has been almost entirely derailed and the enjoyment of it has been spoiled for those interested in the original subject.

All members, if the thread does not go back to the original topic it will be closed.

LesRonces, you need to refrain from posting in this topic.
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ekat2.0
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Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby ekat2.0 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:58 am

I like the concept that the goal is communication, not perfection. Even native speakers do not know everything.
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Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby aaleks » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:11 pm

ekat2.0 wrote:I like the concept that the goal is communication, not perfection. Even native speakers do not know everything.

It's probably true, but the quality of that communication makes all the difference. There's a border line between communication and 'normal', comfortable, communication. For example my writing here. It seems that to some level I can express myself, but there are a lot of mistakes in my posts. Some of them even I myself am able to find when I re-read the posts after a while (Usually I just see that there's something wrong with a sentence, it doesn't feel/look right, doesn't make sense, or something like these). Sometimes it's just sloppiness but nonetheless... If I start to think that it's OK since it seems people can understand me, and stop to do anything to improve my productive skills I will never learn to communicate in a 'normal' way, not a native-like, but just in a coherent, educated-like (if I may say so :roll: :) ) way.
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Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby Xmmm » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:35 pm

aaleks wrote:
ekat2.0 wrote:I like the concept that the goal is communication, not perfection. Even native speakers do not know everything.

It's probably true, but the quality of that communication makes all the difference. There's a border line between communication and 'normal', comfortable, communication. For example my writing here. It seems that to some level I can express myself, but there are a lot of mistakes in my posts. Some of them even I myself am able to find when I re-read the posts after a while (Usually I just see that there's something wrong with a sentence, it doesn't feel/look right, doesn't make sense, or something like these). Sometimes it's just sloppiness but nonetheless... If I start to think that it's OK since it seems people can understand me, and stop to do anything to improve my productive skills I will never learn to communicate in a 'normal' way, not a native-like, but just in a coherent, educated-like (if I may say so :roll: :) ) way.


I really want to convince you that your goal should not be to write error-free English, but rather to write English that is easy to read.

If some writes "perfect" English in the style of Thomas Hardy, he's not going to be able to pay people to read his stuff. On the other hand, you have a light, readable style ... your stuff flows. As a native reader I don't care if you make an occasional mistake -- I might not even see your occasional mistake since I'll be skimming. But the point is that I want to skim, not get bogged down in complicated sentences full of commas and subordinate clauses (or whatever they are, lol).

Your writing is very, very readable and that is very, very good. You should give yourself more credit. If you want to keep improving and fixing occasional mistakes, that's fine ... but don't lose the flow.
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Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby aaleks » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:04 pm

Xmmm wrote:Your writing is very, very readable and that is very, very good. You should give yourself more credit. If you want to keep improving and fixing occasional mistakes, that's fine ... but don't lose the flow.

Thank you :) . I will try. I guess that somewhere on a subconscious level that is probably my goal - the flow.
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ekat2.0
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Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby ekat2.0 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:19 pm

I studied writing in college.

Most public writing is written at about 8th grade level-- the vocabulary of a 14 or 15 year old; this means, newspapers, magazines, and blogs, public consumption novels.
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Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby sfuqua » Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:40 am

I always wonder about those vocabulary level things.

If most writing for adults is at the 8th grade level, doesn't that mean what we call 8th grade is the adult level?

Where do these grade level things come from?

I guess there is a target listed somewhere, but if we are going to evaluate people on arbitrary standards that some professor, who does not teach language learners, sets, why not pick another one that sounds better.

I'm a middle school teacher in the US, and I get grey hair from arbitrary standards set by people who do not teach, which define students as below average, and the teachers who teach them as failures.

Sorry; I just hate "grade level standards". The glass is half full. I insist that it is. :D

Now I'll probably go back to talking about "grade level standards" just like everybody else.

edited to add a couple of words.
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Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby Tommyknocker » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:48 am

I think it depends on how you study language and how many hours a day you use for studying. Remember native speakers study and practice their native language all day! It's not surprise children at age 6 know their language much better than foreigners who study it for few years. Although foreigners could have bigger vocabulary but they don't feel the words and can use it with 100% efficiency.
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Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby reineke » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:21 pm

"Average native test-takers of age 8 already know 10,000 words
Average native test-takers of age 4 already know 5,000 words
Adult native test-takers learn almost 1 new word a day until middle age
Adult test-taker vocabulary growth basically stops at middle age
The most common vocabulary size for foreign test-takers is 4,500 words
Foreign test-takers tend to reach over 10,000 words by living abroad"

"while increasing your reading matters, increasing your reading of fiction, specifically, matters equally as much."

http://testyourvocab.com/blog/
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Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby Iversen » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:19 pm

reineke wrote:The most common vocabulary size for foreign test-takers is 4,500 words
Foreign test-takers tend to reach over 10,000 words by living abroad"


I'm not impressed by the numbers reached by foreigners. Shame on us...

Further down the article there are some resultats for people who have taken language tests designed to measure possible university candidates, and while the numbers here generally are better I do find the following quote rather disconcerting.

"While there's nothing particularly unexpected from this data, it is interesting to see that the three exams basically cover vocabulary ranges from lower-advanced (around 6,000) to lower-native (around 20,000) — which makes sense, since the tests are geared towards university admissions."

How can any university cater for students who only know 6000 words?
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