How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Practice your target languages here.
User avatar
rdearman
Site Admin
Posts: 3068
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 4:18 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Languages: English (N)
French (studies), Italian (studies), Mandarin (studies),
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1836
x 6564
Contact:

Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby rdearman » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:54 pm

LesRonces wrote:
aravinda wrote:

....The first response to, desitrader’s post starts with the words “ total nonsense”.....

I don't understand what people's problems with honesty is. Do we have to tiptoe around and put things nicely-nicey all the time ?

Why can't something which is total nonsense be called total nonsense any more ? Are we really that sensitive as a people ?

I for one refuse to apologise for it however blunt it may be perceived as.

If someone says it's impossible to run the 100m in less than 10 seconds i will call that total nonsense as well, because it is.

It is possible to disagree with someone without being rude or blunt. Yes, we do have to be nicely-nicey all the time because it is in the rules and because manners and courtesies, customs and conventions are there to make life more amenable and relationships more bearable in difficult times. At the very heart of good manners is consideration for others. Good manners are based on an authentic concern for the respect of others.

We should try to be gracious when someone could feel embarrassed by our statements. Graciousness is the art of being kind and gentle and since we're all here because we want to learn to speak with others, I think it would be a good idea to always try to be gracious and nice regardless if the conversation is in real-life, or online forums. There is an Irish saying; "Manners cost nothing".
11 x
I do videos for using various language learning software on computers, and videos waffling on about language learning with Dave Prine.

: 554 / 5000 Roger, le petit dragon:

User avatar
LesRonces
Green Belt
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 7:48 am
Languages: FR B1¾
x 531

Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby LesRonces » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:56 pm

rdearman wrote:
LesRonces wrote:
aravinda wrote:

....The first response to, desitrader’s post starts with the words “ total nonsense”.....

I don't understand what people's problems with honesty is. Do we have to tiptoe around and put things nicely-nicey all the time ?

Why can't something which is total nonsense be called total nonsense any more ? Are we really that sensitive as a people ?

I for one refuse to apologise for it however blunt it may be perceived as.

If someone says it's impossible to run the 100m in less than 10 seconds i will call that total nonsense as well, because it is.

It is possible to disagree with someone without being rude or blunt. Yes, we do have to be nicely-nicey all the time because it is in the rules and because manners and courtesies, customs and conventions are there to make life more amenable and relationships more bearable in difficult times. At the very heart of good manners is consideration for others. Good manners are based on an authentic concern for the respect of others.

We should try to be gracious when someone could feel embarrassed by our statements. Graciousness is the art of being kind and gentle and since we're all here because we want to learn to speak with others, I think it would be a good idea to always try to be gracious and nice regardless if the conversation is in real-life, or online forums. There is an Irish saying; "Manners cost nothing".

I have manners. If i say 'that assertion is nonsensical' i don't get accused of being rude. I wonder why that is ? Bluntness isn't rudeness.

If someone says the world is flat people would say that's total nonsense. I attacked the assertion not the poster. I fail to see how you can have bad manners against an opinion.
3 x

Online
Bluepaint
Blue Belt
Posts: 854
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:41 pm
x 606

Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby Bluepaint » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:04 pm

Let me put this more simply: you can follow the rules or you can choose not to participate.
4 x

aaleks
Green Belt
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Location: Russia
Languages: Russian (N)
English (?)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6724
x 594

Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby aaleks » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:09 pm

aravinda wrote:the “secret” dream of many language learners (myself included) of passing as a native speaker in the target language some (distant) day.

I don't have such dream and I don't remember if I ever have. Of course, I want to learn my TL to a decent level, but a native-like level it's a bit different thing. But I disagree with desitrader's claim anyway. He said that:
desitrader wrote:Reading / writing like a native: Entirely possible.

Listening / speaking like a native: Impossible.


Well, I guess I myself am another anecdotal evidence which proving he is wrong on both counts: I doubt that I ever will be able to write as a native (English) and at the same time I believe that my listening skill is good enough to understand most of English media. So in my case it should look like this: reading and listening - 'entirely possible' and writing and speaking - 'impossible' :)

But I believe that other people, more talented or more persistent than I am, can reach that very high level of language proficiency. I think that only "impossible" thing here could be speaking, since many people can't get rid of an accent completely.
1 x

User avatar
LesRonces
Green Belt
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 7:48 am
Languages: FR B1¾
x 531

Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby LesRonces » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:23 pm

Rhian wrote:Let me put this more simply: you can follow the rules or you can choose not to participate.

I didn't contravene any rules. And if i did, you need to clarify them because definition of rudeness in context is entirely arbitrary and personal.

Perhaps you should update the FAQ's with a list of words which we're not able to use despite not using them to attack the quoted person. I didn't call him an idiot. I didn't say he was useless. I didn't say he was full of shit. I simply said his provably non-factual statement was nonsense.

I'm sorry but i'm clearly missing something here.

A definition of 'nonsense' is 'Used to express disagreement'. So please tell me what 'rules' that breaks ? As far as i can tell it doesn't. Another definition is 'an idea that is absurd or contrary to good sense'. Which his idea is.

I'm genuinely perplexed by this. For a language forum the usage of perfectly reasonable language without the absence of moderator intervention is rather strange.
3 x

Online
Bluepaint
Blue Belt
Posts: 854
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:41 pm
x 606

Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby Bluepaint » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Rdearman has explained it to you already.

This thread has been almost entirely derailed and the enjoyment of it has been spoiled for those interested in the original subject.

All members, if the thread does not go back to the original topic it will be closed.

LesRonces, you need to refrain from posting in this topic.
4 x

ekat2.0
White Belt
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:48 pm
Languages: (Beginner)Spanish, (Beginner) Russian, English (N)
x 14

Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby ekat2.0 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:58 am

I like the concept that the goal is communication, not perfection. Even native speakers do not know everything.
3 x

aaleks
Green Belt
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Location: Russia
Languages: Russian (N)
English (?)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6724
x 594

Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby aaleks » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:11 pm

ekat2.0 wrote:I like the concept that the goal is communication, not perfection. Even native speakers do not know everything.

It's probably true, but the quality of that communication makes all the difference. There's a border line between communication and 'normal', comfortable, communication. For example my writing here. It seems that to some level I can express myself, but there are a lot of mistakes in my posts. Some of them even I myself am able to find when I re-read the posts after a while (Usually I just see that there's something wrong with a sentence, it doesn't feel/look right, doesn't make sense, or something like these). Sometimes it's just sloppiness but nonetheless... If I start to think that it's OK since it seems people can understand me, and stop to do anything to improve my productive skills I will never learn to communicate in a 'normal' way, not a native-like, but just in a coherent, educated-like (if I may say so :roll: :) ) way.
1 x

User avatar
Xmmm
Blue Belt
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:19 am
Location: США
Languages: ru it tr
x 1070

Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby Xmmm » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:35 pm

aaleks wrote:
ekat2.0 wrote:I like the concept that the goal is communication, not perfection. Even native speakers do not know everything.

It's probably true, but the quality of that communication makes all the difference. There's a border line between communication and 'normal', comfortable, communication. For example my writing here. It seems that to some level I can express myself, but there are a lot of mistakes in my posts. Some of them even I myself am able to find when I re-read the posts after a while (Usually I just see that there's something wrong with a sentence, it doesn't feel/look right, doesn't make sense, or something like these). Sometimes it's just sloppiness but nonetheless... If I start to think that it's OK since it seems people can understand me, and stop to do anything to improve my productive skills I will never learn to communicate in a 'normal' way, not a native-like, but just in a coherent, educated-like (if I may say so :roll: :) ) way.


I really want to convince you that your goal should not be to write error-free English, but rather to write English that is easy to read.

If some writes "perfect" English in the style of Thomas Hardy, he's not going to be able to pay people to read his stuff. On the other hand, you have a light, readable style ... your stuff flows. As a native reader I don't care if you make an occasional mistake -- I might not even see your occasional mistake since I'll be skimming. But the point is that I want to skim, not get bogged down in complicated sentences full of commas and subordinate clauses (or whatever they are, lol).

Your writing is very, very readable and that is very, very good. You should give yourself more credit. If you want to keep improving and fixing occasional mistakes, that's fine ... but don't lose the flow.
6 x
hours: ru 1414 it 553 tr 49 ALG Self-Study

aaleks
Green Belt
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Location: Russia
Languages: Russian (N)
English (?)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6724
x 594

Re: How many years does it take to learn the second language as your native?

Postby aaleks » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:04 pm

Xmmm wrote:Your writing is very, very readable and that is very, very good. You should give yourself more credit. If you want to keep improving and fixing occasional mistakes, that's fine ... but don't lose the flow.

Thank you :) . I will try. I guess that somewhere on a subconscious level that is probably my goal - the flow.
0 x


Return to “Multilingual Room”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: nbeing and 1 guest