Odd materials at the university lessons

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Speakeasy
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Re: Odd materials at the university lessons

Postby Speakeasy » Fri May 26, 2017 11:02 pm

Tomás wrote: I would wait until you have tenure before assigning that one.


"And besides, do people not talk about these things? … Take it as an academic exercise."

"Adults are expected to be able to deal with challenging things."

"Those are mostly very important issues that are discussed at length in our L1's. What would be the point in pretending these things don't exist ? To spare the feelings of the hyper-sensitive?"

"If you don't feel comfortable with the subject matter then you need to figure out a way to deal with that for yourself. That does not mean that the material is inappropriate to teach though."

"Being able to navigate sensitive topics of conversation is a crucial skill to acquire ... Take an outrageous position in class discussions (I hate puppies and want them all tortured and made into sushi!)."
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Speakeasy
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Re: Odd materials at the university lessons

Postby Speakeasy » Fri May 26, 2017 11:54 pm

Sizen wrote: ...This, to me, seems like a constructive and educational discussion for both language acquisition and critical thinking, whereas your example seems to suggest that the authors wish for the students to adopt the same viewpoint as them, regardless of their beliefs ...
You appear to believe that my example “steps over the line”; if so, the questions become “just where is the line?” and “who has the moral authority to draw it?”

My (only slightly) exaggerated example was meant to illustrate that there is, indeed, a “tipping point” beyond which someone is going to have good cause for feeling uncomfortable if asked to discuss issues that most adults would readily recognize as being sensitive, controversial, or even deliberately provocative.

As a prime example, last week, in response to my discussion thread “Language as a Political Tool and Weapon of War", fellow member aokoye felt it necessary to issue the dire warning “I think even answering the question, "why was this included in the language textbook?" is rife for political discussion” thereby demonstrating that he harbours his own limits and taboos. Our respective levels of comfort can be quite unpredictable. As a second example, I find that you have misconstrued my example and that you have extrapolated well beyond what a genuinely well-intentioned professor might assign his students.

And yet, you, aokoye, Tomàs and others would seem to offer yourselves as the final arbiters in what is acceptable! This is fascinating, particular when one takes into account the following cautionary advice to instructors, taken from the Introduction: “The material should only be used with classes you know well and where the students are sensitive enough to trust both you and their fellow students. Even then, you must use the material sensitively. Individual students or members of their family or their close friends may have immediate, personal, and even painful, experience of many of the topics. In some cases, you might want to check with an individual student before using a particular topic in class. It is essential that teachers remain alert for difficulties. If a particular issue becomes too sensitive, the teacher must be willing to abandon the topic and be prepared to move on to something completely different.”

In a rare display of alertness to others' sensitivities, LesRonces, having read the document, commented "Did you actually read the document he linked to? Those are mostly very important issues that are discussed at length in our L1's. What would be the point in pretending these things don't exist ? To spare the feelings of the hyper-sensitive? ... we all should be able to do what we like so we don't offend any delicate people? ...
People who don't want to deal with challenges are free to do sweet f.a with themselves and their lives. Nobody forces them into work or university. Championing the refusal to be challenged is to champion a survival of the most useless."
... must have overlooked the Introduction ... I guess.
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Re: Odd materials at the university lessons

Postby aokoye » Sat May 27, 2017 12:39 am

Speakeasy wrote:As a prime example, last week, in response to my discussion thread “Language as a Political Tool and Weapon of War", fellow member aokoye felt it necessary to issue the dire warning “I think even answering the question, "why was this included in the language textbook?" is rife for political discussion” thereby demonstrating that he harbours his own limits and taboos.

A dire warning? Really? That's quite an exaggeration. I actually quite enjoy discussing things like linguistic genocide, whether or not Peace Corps volunteers and Fulbright awardees who teach English are tools of neoliberalism, the pros and cons of the Bologna Process as it relates to languages, and linguistic rights. I, however, recognize that this forum has rules and so I don't generally discuss those things on this forum. I save that for other forums or, more frequently, non-internet spaces. So no, that isn't my own "limit" or "taboo" it's trying to follow the rules of this forum. If it was then I'd really be in a world of trouble given that I want to go into language education policy. Never mind that I've freely chosen to take classes like language and power and discourse analysis. Seriously - your assertion in relation to what is or is not taboo to me is laughable.

And yet, you, aokoye, Tomàs and others would seem to offer yourselves as the final arbiters in what is acceptable! This is fascinating, particular when one takes into account the following cautionary advice to instructors, taken from the Introduction...

Pretty sure I'm not the "final arbiter" of what is and isn't acceptable content in university settings. Good try though.

In a rare display of alertness to others' sensitivities, LesRonces, having read the document, commented "Did you actually read the document he linked to? Those are mostly very important issues that are discussed at length in our L1's. What would be the point in pretending these things don't exist ? To spare the feelings of the hyper-sensitive? ... we all should be able to do what we like so we don't offend any delicate people? ...
Are you implying that the rest of us didn't read or at least skim the document once it was linked to. If so you're a. wrong and b. not paying enough attention to the replies that have been written after the link was posted. So really, could you please stop putting words and my and others' mouths and maybe try to engage in constructive dialogue instead. Don't even try to tell me that people with opposing viewpoints can't have constructive conversations online or offline because that's patently untrue. If you were to engage in said dialogue I suspect your assumptions of many would really change.
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Re: Odd materials at the university lessons

Postby Speakeasy » Sat May 27, 2017 1:17 am

Aokoye, tu n'as rien compris ... je ne suis aucunement surpris.
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Re: Odd materials at the university lessons

Postby emk » Sat May 27, 2017 1:47 am

Speakeasy wrote:Aokoye, tu n'as rien compris ... je ne suis aucunement surpris.

Soyez gentil.

Please step back, take a moment, and think about what's going on. Are you discussing languages? Or are you discussing politics? To me, this feels like it's leaning towards politics. And it's getting personal.

I appreciate your contributions to this community, I really do. But the forum rules exist for a reason, and everybody is expected to obey them.

Personally, I enjoy political debate, and I hang around on other forums and debate people with some pretty-far out views. But I also need time away from political debate. And anyway, this particular forum isn't for political debate. And yes, this means that sometimes I avoid posting certain interesting French news articles in my log. If I can bite my tongue and avoid certain subjects, so can everybody else. :-)
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Re: Odd materials at the university lessons

Postby Sizen » Sat May 27, 2017 1:52 am

Edit: No need for this message.
Last edited by Sizen on Sat May 27, 2017 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Speakeasy
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Re: Odd materials at the university lessons

Postby Speakeasy » Sat May 27, 2017 11:09 am

Sizen wrote: ...
I would reply, were permitted to do so.

EDITED: punctuation.
Last edited by Speakeasy on Sat May 27, 2017 6:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Speakeasy
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Re: Odd materials at the university lessons

Postby Speakeasy » Sat May 27, 2017 11:09 am

emk wrote: ...
PM sent.
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Re: Odd materials at the university lessons

Postby zenmonkey » Sat May 27, 2017 11:59 am

Here's my take on this material and it's appropriateness - first off, it isn't some random material chosen without thought and outside of an educational framework. The OP's post in its brevity allows for all sorts of interpretations which then led the thread to take polarised views.

Personally, I can very much see both how this material can be taught appropriate or inappropriately.

If the students are informed beforehand and have the option to opt out of this course I do not see particular issue with it. Informed consent to address topics which ARE taboos and ARE difficult to address in no way reduced the 'adultness' of the participants. The relationship between a teacher and a student is not one of peers and the power position of the teacher, especially in the University setting, is exactly why we recognise moral and ethical obligations on their behaviour.

About 30 years ago I took a class on 'Film and Society' taught by Dr Money. We knew beforehand that the subject matter would be challenging and that the title did not represent the whole scope of what would be covered (The students called the course 'Sex and Money'). Dr Money is now gone, but the complexity of subject matter touched is suggested by his obit: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/11/us/11money.html

Even having known beforehand (and literally having the students sign off on it), the material touched taboos, explicit sexual elements, and areas of discussion that were heated and intricate and a few students dropped the class (it also had huge, long assignments ...) while the subject matter WAS appropriate for a university setting. The equivalent material in a language class, to a captured audience, would have been without a doubt inappropriate if presented without some sort of pre-amble. Language learning, even at advanced levels, should not occur in an environment where the students are obligate participants without warning.

Having said that, attaching an emotional element to language learning material is useful for learning - memorisation, ability to discuss under pressure, rhetoric capacity are all elements that are influenced positively from the difficulty of the material. But that shouldn't be a pigeoned exercise of 'bait and switch'.
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