how to differentiate nominative-genitive and accusative for some specific cases (arabic)

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Hashimi
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Re: how to differentiate nominative-genitive and accusative for some specific cases (arabic)

Postby Hashimi » Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:39 am

jimmy wrote:....although we have no idea for its gender.


We do!

الكلب is masculine.

الكلبة is feminine.

القط is masculine.

القطة is feminine.

But the plural are always feminine! So if there are a group of male dogs كلاب, we treat them all as a feminine group, linguistically!

So we say الكلاب مريضة
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Hashimi
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Re: how to differentiate nominative-genitive and accusative for some specific cases (arabic)

Postby Hashimi » Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:53 am

hp230 wrote:....IMHO Arabic works differently, there is only two types of sentences: جمل اسمية(Nominal sentences) and الجمل الفعلية (Actual sentences).


You may be surprised if tell you that all sentences in Arabic has at least one verb, and that there are no true جملة اسمية at all!

The verb in the so-called جملة اسمية is only hidden in the present tense, but it appears in the past and the future. It also appears if you negate the present. (Jimmy, what I'm going to say may confuse you as a beginner, so it's better not to read it)

hp230, let me explain it using the following examples. We can say:

1) الولد مريض = The boy is sick

2) ليس الولد مريضاً = The boy is not sick

3) كان الولد مريضاً = The boy was sick

4) لم يكن الولد مريضاً = The boy was not sick

5) سيكون الولد مريضاً = The boy will be sick

6) لن يكون الولد مريضاً = The boy will not be sick

So in all these examples the verb is obvious and we can't omit it except in the first one. Even in the negated sentence in the present tense there is a verb because ليس is actually لا + أيس which is the equivalent of of the verb "to be" or "exist".
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jimmy
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Re: how to differentiate nominative-genitive and accusative for some specific cases (arabic)

Postby jimmy » Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:46 am

Hashimi wrote:
jimmy wrote:....although we have no idea for its gender.


We do!

الكلب is masculine.

الكلبة is feminine.

القط is masculine.

القطة is feminine.

But the plural are always feminine! So if there are a group of male dogs كلاب, we treat them all as a feminine group, linguistically!

So we say الكلاب مريضة


oh,yes!
how did I miss this ,sorry really.

many thanks for these informative instructions. mmm.meanwhile can we say this as in general situation?

for instance

المُهْندِيسُ --->> The engineer is singular and also masculine ,similarly as above. but;

المُهْندِيسُنَ ---->> plural form. (therefore can we say that this is FEMININE?)

المُدُرِّسُ --->> already masculine (we know this.)
المٌدَرِّسُن --->> plural (i.e.: feminine ?)
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Re: how to differentiate nominative-genitive and accusative for some specific cases (arabic)

Postby Doitsujin » Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:32 am

jimmy wrote:المُهْندِيسُ --->> The engineer is singular and also masculine ,similarly as above. but;
المُهْندِيسُنَ ---->> plural form. (therefore can we say that this is FEMININE?)

المُدُرِّسُ --->> already masculine (we know this.)
المٌدَرِّسُن --->> plural (i.e.: feminine ?)
You've misspelled the singular and plural forms

Engineer:
مُهَنْدِسٌ [muhandis(ŭn)]
مُهَنْدِسُونَ / مُهَنْدِسِيْنَ [muhandisūn(a)/muhandisīn(a)]

As Hashimi has already explained, non-human plurals are treated like feminine singular nouns and are used with feminine singular adjectives, however, male plural forms ending in -ūn(a)/īn(a) and female plurals forms ending in -āt(ŭn) are used with the corresponding plural adjective forms.

For example:

dilligent (male) engineers = مُهَنْدِسُونَ مُجْتَهِدُونَ
dilligent (female) engineers = مُهَنْدِساتٌ مُجْتَهِداتٌ

(Plural adjectives also need to be used for other plural forms if they refer to human beings.)
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Re: how to differentiate nominative-genitive and accusative for some specific cases (arabic)

Postby jimmy » Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:03 am

Doitsujin wrote:
jimmy wrote:المُهْندِيسُ --->> The engineer is singular and also masculine ,similarly as above. but;
المُهْندِيسُنَ ---->> plural form. (therefore can we say that this is FEMININE?)

المُدُرِّسُ --->> already masculine (we know this.)
المٌدَرِّسُن --->> plural (i.e.: feminine ?)
You've misspelled the singular and plural forms

Engineer:
مُهَنْدِسٌ [muhandis(ŭn)]
مُهَنْدِسُونَ / مُهَنْدِسِيْنَ [muhandisūn(a)/muhandisīn(a)]

As Hashimi has already explained, non-human plurals are treated like feminine singular nouns and are used with feminine singular adjectives, however, male plural forms ending in -ūn(a)/īn(a) and female plurals forms ending in -āt(ŭn) are used with the corresponding plural adjective forms.

For example:

dilligent (male) engineers = مُهَنْدِسُونَ مُجْتَهِدُونَ
dilligent (female) engineers = مُهَنْدِساتٌ مُجْتَهِداتٌ

(Plural adjectives also need to be used for other plural forms if they refer to human beings.)


I think they are correct,except not all of the حَرَكةُه are writtem over the words.
the thing you written is not engineer ,it is "an engineer" , meanwhile
مُجْتَهِدُونَ

means "hardworking"

but I would express this detail: more correctly,I do not prefer to say " they are correct" ,rather than this I say "it is being said on that website that that forms were correct"
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Re: how to differentiate nominative-genitive and accusative for some specific cases (arabic)

Postby jimmy » Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:14 am

,it is now being discussed on and after this section.

https://www.madinaharabic.com/arabic-la ... 3_007.html


I think I should learn by heart all of these plural forms because there is no method to record them in mind logically
I mean only irregular (broken) plurals
Last edited by jimmy on Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: how to differentiate nominative-genitive and accusative for some specific cases (arabic)

Postby jimmy » Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:22 pm

oh,sorry ,yes ,I had mispelled at somewhere. in" the engineer" word.

sorry for that
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Re: how to differentiate nominative-genitive and accusative for some specific cases (arabic)

Postby jimmy » Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:02 pm

,it is now being discussed on and after this section.

https://www.madinaharabic.com/arabic-la ... 3_007.html


I think I should learn by heart all of these plural forms because there is no method to record them in mind logically
I mean only irregular (broken) plurals
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Re: how to differentiate nominative-genitive and accusative for some specific cases (arabic)

Postby hp230 » Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:48 pm

Hashimi wrote:You may be surprised if tell you that all sentences in Arabic has at least one verb, and that there are no true جملة اسمية at all!
.

When you translate to English, every sentence will contain a verb of course, I see what you mean, but not an Arabic verb ;) , and you certainly can transform nominal sentences to actual sentences using a verb keeping the same meaning (a common exercise at primary school..., similar to other languages as well)
I just wanted to explain as I was academically taught, but if it's easier for you to understand the structure after translation, then let it be :).
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Re: how to differentiate nominative-genitive and accusative for some specific cases (arabic)

Postby Querneus » Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:38 pm

jimmy wrote:2) if any subject or pronouns ends with these اِ, ي,ة then these are feminine (I am not sure for ي)

The vast majority of singular nouns ending in ة are feminine, yes. Also, the vast majority of feminine nouns end in ة. Either way it's not 100% of the nouns though.

There are a few human masculine nouns ending in ة, for example خليفة‎ xaliifa 'caliph'. You can find most of these nouns in this Wiktionary page, there's not a lot of them.

A bit less uncommonly, there are also some human masculine nouns that end in ة in the plural, for example أساتذة ʔasaatiða 'professors' (plural of أستاذ ʔustaað 'professor').

Most nouns ending in ي -ii are masculine, so that's wrong. I don't know what you mean by "اِ" (alif with kasra below, what is that?).

Some nouns ending in ى -aa or ا -aa are feminine, for example موسيقى muusiiqaa 'music' and الدنيا ad-dunyaa 'the world'. But these endings can be found in masculine words too.

3) there is quite interesting point if any clause contain something that reminiscent sexual case ,then this is accepted as genitive clause.

like this: الْقَلَمُ فِي الْحَقِيبَةِ الصَّغِيرَةِ. (this means : the pen is inside the small bag)

The genitive case (المجرور al-majruur) has nothing to do with في 'in' having a sexual meaning. That's just a bad joke your teacher made, or whoever told you that. The truth is that all prepositions take the genitive case, whether it's بـ‎ bi- 'with [something]', خارج‎ xaarija 'outside [something]', مثل‎ miθla 'like [something]', etc.

I shall try to share different forms

for instance how to differentiate this one

أَمْرِيكَا بَلَدٌ كَبِيرٌ. (america is a big country) I think we can acccept this as nominative but not sure.

It is, in fact, underlyingly a nominative, yes. You can tell it is a nominative because if you replace it with other nouns, you need a nominative subject, for example المغرب بلد كبير al-magribu baladun kabiirun 'Morocco is a big country'.

we clearly understand that this sentence is genitive ,but how would we be able to decide whether it was genitive or not if we weren't able to se هَـٰذِهِ which is feminine word in this sentence. هَـٰذِهِ الْمِرْوَحَةُ الْجَدِيدَةُ.

هذه haaðihi is not a genitive here, it is a nominative modifying nominative المروحة al-mirwaHa(tu). The kasra at the end does not mean genitive. هذه haaðihi does not change for case except in the dual number (nominative هاتان‎ haataani, accusative/genitive هاتين‎ haatayni, even then both have kasra).
Last edited by Querneus on Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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