How effective is methodology of reading and listening to the same material repeatedly

[CardiffGiant]

As an intermediate Italian learner, I have been using the materials of Italian Automatico to primarily improve comprehension, vocabulary and speaking. Alberto Alberghini, who started the company, has put forth a methodology that has also been employed in French learning in the website Francais Authentique. Essentially, the recommended method is to utilize Native materials, in my case that is the audio dialogues of Italiano Automatico and corresponding written transcriptions, and to listen to the same materials repeatedly-- first without looking at the transcription in the target language, then listening and reading along with the transcription in the target language, and lastly listen while looking at the English translation. Ultimately, one should wean themselves off the transcriptions once you understand 90-100% of the dialogue. As far as repetition for each dialogue passage (which is up to 12 minutes in length), one should re-listen at least 100 times.

My question is this: has anyone used this methodology to learn Italian or French(or other languages for that matter) and is it effective?

(Btw I do really like the materials as they are high quality and interesting)

I would be interested to hear if others have received some benefit and a description of the degree to which it has helped.

Thanks!

[Iversen]

I have sometimes used printouts which I earlier have copied/understood/culled words from as goodnight reading or in trains and in other places where it would be a problem to handle a paper dictionary. It is nice to feel that you really understand something, but I'm not sure that it adds much to my general knowledge level. The point is that if I already have worked intensively with a text then I have learnt most of what I need to learn from it, and then I just read it again as an easy extensive activity. If it isn't easy then I wasn't thorough enough in round one...

But it does count as an extensive activity, and extensive activities are also important.

PS: I know that CardiffGiant's example was listening to audio dialogues, but I hardly ever listen intensively to anything.

[StringerBell]

This is basically what I did. When I first started learning Italian, I relied very much on Italiano Automatico. I watched all the 300 videos on YT with English/Italian subtitles, stopping after each line so I could read in both languages what he was saying, then I'd just focus on reading the Italian text while listening, (so L-R) then I'd try to just listen and try to rely on the subs only when I couldn't hear/understand a word here or there...then eventually I watched all his videos without subs. I also listened to all of his podcasts while I was washing dishes or driving or doing other stuff.

I used this same strategy with other material (books+audiobooks, the podcast serial "Veleno" w/ transcript, which I HIGHLY recommend). I L-R repeatedly, then when I felt comfortable with my comprehension, I'd switch over to just listening and only peeking at the text afterward to check for specific things I missed, if there was something. It was a lot of work and I put in about 3 hours/day for a year, but after that year my listening comprehension was incredibly impressive. I can very easily understand conversations on a huge variety of topics and I can easily follow TV series in Italian without any subs. So I can confirm that if you're consistent and you put in the time, the strategy will pay off.

I never had any set # of times that I listened to something, I based the # of repetitions on how long it took me to feel like I was really understanding and hearing all the words, or how interesting a particular thing was. I'd also try to vary my repetition pattern. For example, with a book+audiobook, I'd first read a chapter in English to get a grip on what was going on, then L-R that same chapter in Italian. Usually I'd L-R each chapter two or three times before going on to the next chapter, and every so often I'd go back and relisten-read to some older chapters. Sometimes I might only L-R to one chapter before moving on. It really depended on what I was in the mood for in the moment.

I personally did the best when I had a good balance of repetition and novelty. I really agreed with what SK said in this video:

[jeff_lindqvist]

As far as repetition for each dialogue passage (which is up to 12 minutes in length), one should re-listen at least 100 times.

I remember a similar discussion at HTLAL many years ago. (I can't find it now.) Repeated listening (and reading) has its merits. It's not unusual to listen to say, Assimil lessons many times. With the right approach, you understand more and more each time. But 100 times? What can be learned from the 100th time? The 90th? The 50th?

[Chupito]

I have never tried so I admit that I am talking out of my ass but that seems insanely tedious. I can't imagine spending 20 hours listening to the same 12 minutes dialogue, regardless of how fun and interesting it was. I'd rather read the phone book; at least, it would offer some variety.

As for it being an effective use of one's time, I don't buy it. Again - because I honestly can't wrap my mind around this - we are talking about 20 hours devoted to 0.2 hour of content. Surely, at some point well before the 100th rerun, you would know it by heart. Can you imagine what else you could do in 20 hours? In the same time, I watched the entire 52 episodes of an anime serie. Or listened to 10+ hours of an informative podcast. Granted, that's the other extreme but if you did those 3 steps plus an extra listening without audio and listened again to the same dialogue every remaining day of the week - or better yet, shadowed if a few times -, you could go through 10 dialogues in the same time and that would still be a repetitive, intensive use of the materials which should result in in-depth knowledge. Or you could go over 20 dialogues 5 times (without reading, reading TL, reading native language, without reading + one extra the next day). Point being, there are many options and I don't believe 100 times 1 dialogue is the optimal one.

[CardiffGiant]

As far as repetition for each dialogue passage (which is up to 12 minutes in length), one should re-listen at least 100 times.

I remember a similar discussion at HTLAL many years ago. (I can't find it now.) Repeated listening (and reading) has its merits. It's not unusual to listen to say, Assimil lessons many times. With the right approach, you understand more and more each time. But 100 times? What can be learned from the 100th time? The 90th? The 50th?

I am about 40 times in and I am asking myself the same question. I am sure that there is value to this method but I am unsure whether the law of diminishing returns kicks in and perhaps I would be better served moving on to the next dialogue. This is one of the reasons I started the thread

[reineke]

I hear tough cowboy talk but I see no cowboys.

[CardiffGiant]

This is basically what I did. When I first started learning Italian, I relied very much on Italiano Automatico. I watched all the 300 videos on YT with English/Italian subtitles, stopping after each line so I could read in both languages what he was saying, then I'd just focus on reading the Italian text while listening, (so L-R) then I'd try to just listen and try to rely on the subs only when I couldn't hear/understand a word here or there...then eventually I watched all his videos without subs. I also listened to all of his podcasts while I was washing dishes or driving or doing other stuff.

.........

I never had any set # of times that I listened to something, I based the # of repetitions on how long it took me to feel like I was really understanding and hearing all the words, or how interesting a particular thing was. I'd also try to vary my repetition pattern.

Thanks for the video and your post.

So when you used the YT videos for example,what is you estimate of how much time you would spend with say one video(or however you can qualify it)?

[Chupito]

This is basically what I did.

Except that what you describe is completely different. Your method is a balance of width and depth, which I highly recommend to OP, whereas the method suggested by M. Alberghini is full-on repetition.

Where you say you went over a single chapter 2 or 3 times and maybe a couple times again later, M. Alberghini claims you should go over the dialogue at least a 100 times and OP seems to be taking that literally. Where you say you watched 300 videos, used books with audiobooks, listened to a podcast serial with transcripts, etc, OP - if he were to dedicate 3 hours a day every day for a year like you did - would get the equivalent of watching 7 movies or 54 youtube videos of medium length.

This result, in particular, wouldn't be possible by just listening repeatedly to such a small range of content:

after that year my listening comprehension was incredibly impressive. I can very easily understand conversations on a huge variety of topics and I can easily follow TV series in Italian without any subs.

You got that by varying content, topics, speakers, mediums, etc.

[StringerBell]

So when you used the YT videos for example,what is you estimate of how much time you would spend with say one video(or however you can qualify it)?

I didn't do exactly the same thing for each video, but I would say that often it would go something like this:

1) watch the video pausing after each line to read Italian and English subs.
2) watch the video 2nd time, pausing after each line to read Italian and English subs. After every 10-30 seconds of the video, go back and relisten to the part I just read, trying to focus on matching what I was hearing to the Italian (ignoring the English). If I understood/remembered the meaning well enough, repeat with the next chunk of the video. If not, redo the current chunk.
3) watch the same video all the way through while reading only Italian subs. Depending on how my comprehension was, I might:
a) be satisfied and move on to the next video, then return to this video in a few days, or:
b) rewatch the video again, pausing at parts that were still difficult, and perhaps rewatch just those sections a few times.

I would say I probably averaged 3-5 viewings (or R-L) total for each video. If I found a video particularly interesting, funny, or useful I would maybe watch even 10 times. Others, maybe just 2 times.

I've heard Alberto discuss many times about relistening to things sometimes 20, 30, or 100 times, but every time I've heard him discuss it, I get the impression that he's using those numbers as a way to emphasize listening repeatedly not that we should all literally listen to everything 100 times. I'm sure he has listened to some stuff in Russian that many times, which for him is an opaque language. And I think that more repetition works better with languages that are less opaque.

For example, with a lot of my beginning Polish graded reader stories with audio, I absolutely L-R and then listened without text to many of the stories 40 or 50 times each. Maybe even more when all was said and done. But the key for me was that I didn't listen to each one 50 times before moving on to new stuff; I'd L-R maybe 5-6 times, then L-R to the next story, then cycle back and L-R to that first one another 3 times, new story, a week later cycle back and L-R to the old stuff again. This level of repetition with Polish was really useful for me, whereas this level of repetition with a language like Italian would have been overkill and probably counterproductive.