What should I focus on now?

[lavengro]

I don't really understand what you're trying to say, sorry.

Of course I could simply rephrase the whole post. But that wouldn't be too time-sensitive.
What part/s or aspect/s don't you really understand?

None of it really, it seems to be worded very clumsily.

Very clumsily? "Thanks". And I don't care too much anyway if any particular person perceives it like that.

Never mind though, it's not important for you to explain it to me.

For me (SGP)? Yes, not any more, yes. But in case someone else would like some re-phrasing, they could simply tell me what part/s or aspect/s it is about. Because while I don't share everyone's POV on "clumsy wording" or not, we still are here for the very same purpose.

I hesitate to intrude on the thread as I have nothing substantive to add to the original question. But in case it may be of any benefit Benjamin for you to have another perspective, you seem very committed to wording your posts in an unusual manner, and you should not be surprised if readers (myself included) often do not understand you. You are free to write in whatever manner you wish, as is everyone on the forum, but if you choose to write in an enigmatic fashion as you do (possibly for your own amusement) you should not be surprised to get feedback from time to time pointing out that you are occasionally very unclear or completely obscure. To the extent that we are here for "the very same purpose," the manner in which you appear intentionally to write, with explicit references to hints or clues, awkward phrasing, etc. seems counterproductive in terms of communication. Please note that I would not say this if it were not clear you are already accomplished in English, so your unusual wording appears clearly to be a matter of choice rather than of imperfect understanding of English.

[SGP]

I hesitate to intrude on the thread as I have nothing substantive to add to the original question.[...]

Just replied to you in another thread, to avoid writing something here that could be considered off-topic.

[SGP]

Exactly this. It's not that i don't understand the words he's using, it's that the way he's phrasing things makes it very unclear what he's actually trying to say.

Again, in cases like these it would even be more useful to be more concrete. Yes, you also said that "it is not important for me [SGP] to explain it to you". But this is a public reply, so I did repeat that hint. Without an explanation like this, there is way too much guess-work involved, because when someone simply says "I didn't understand", it could be about just any sentence/phrasing/thought/etc.

In any case if i were still a learner i would want people to point out if i were being unclear. I certainly wouldn't want people to just nod and smile and pretend they understood me for the sake of feelings.

And as for me, I also really don't like the very idea of anyone pretending having understood anyone. If there is anything else you would like to add to topics like these, you, too, could do so in the other thread (the link has been mentioned in my previous post).

[David1917]

There is never a need to produce wrong sentences just because one needs to justify some sort of 'production'.

Not propagating producing wrong sentences either. I don't agree at all to one of the two parts of Tarzan Speech that some keep recommending to new language learners. Now that part is about starting to speak even if one could mix up "I" and "you".

But as for the other part, I really do like it, and I am using it sometimes myself, especially with the A1/pre-A1 languages. It is about simplifying some things when there are these two choices only:
- Not saying anything
- Saying it, but in a simplified way, which includes e.g. replacing a conjugated verb with its infinitive.

And as for the second part of Tarzan speech, I for one don't consider it wrong language usage anyway, but ... simplified ... only.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say, sorry.

Going to try not to sufficiently de-rail the topic. This also took me a few tries but I understand the main point of SGP's post to be:

There are two recommendations given to language-learners that SGP has categorized as "Tarzan Speech." These two are 1) Start speaking right away, no matter how awful you may sound, and even if you might confuse words like "I" and "you". On this point, SGP agrees with you that one should not engage in this activity by producing incorrect language just for its own sake. He goes on to talk about another aspect of "Tarzan Speech" for learners, namely 2) Say something in a simplified manner rather than remaining silent, including at the expense of using an infinitive in place of a conjugated verb [e.g. "Usted querer ir al cine con yo?"]

What I do not understand is how point 2 is in that divergent form point 1, assuming I understood it properly.

Now, for the topic at hand, what should a learner do at an intermediate stage to clean up some constructions when producing language? Well yes, observing natives and imitating natives is definitely a surefire way to do so. One might systematically do this through an advanced coursebook (e.g. Assimil Using Spanish, Linguaphone Expert) or by consuming more media and conversing as often as possible.

[SGP]

As i said, i'm just telling you i didn't understand and so the conversation can pretty much end there.

That is what I (basically) also intended to do.

There's no need for you to explain yourself.

I'd say there is some "need" to do so, because I like to contribute as much as I can (within the limits of what I am able to do). And for that purpose, it is even more helpful if a) I explain something when it wasn't to clear [not talking about you specially...] b) also mention something else (details in that other thread, link provided in one of the previous posts). Also, I am only replying here rather than there because you did it, too, otherwise I wouldn't do so, because some may be a bit off-topic to some.

I'm not a language teacher. Maybe one of those could provide feedback on your writing.

As I already mentioned in the other thread, it isn't about the language, but about something else (explained there). I certainly and without the slightest shade of doubt do write German in a similar way.

[SGP]

[...] but I understand the main point of SGP's post to be:

There are two recommendations given to language-learners that SGP has categorized as "Tarzan Speech." These two are 1) Start speaking right away, no matter how awful you may sound, and even if you might confuse words like "I" and "you". On this point, SGP agrees with you that one should not engage in this activity by producing incorrect language just for its own sake.

Yes, on this point I do agree with the other person that one shouldn't be producing any output like this at all.

He goes on to talk about another aspect of "Tarzan Speech" for learners, namely 2) Say something in a simplified manner rather than remaining silent, including at the expense of using an infinitive in place of a conjugated verb [e.g. "Usted querer ir al cine con yo?"]

Yes, just like that.

What I do not understand is how point 2 is in that divergent form point 1, assuming I understood it properly.

My point of view on that is that mixing up "yo" and "tú" is a plain error, because "I" doesn't mean "you" at all. But "querer ir" instead of "quiere ir" is something that has got some foundation in the language, because it logically makes sense etc. The same for "con yo" instead of "conmigo". If I wouldn't occasionally use that way of speaking (especially with less advanced languages on my list, not Spanish in particular), I would have far less possibilities of practicing and progressing.

[David1917]

My point of view on that is that mixing up "yo" and "tú" is a plain error, because "I" doesn't mean "you" at all. But "querer ir" instead of "quiere ir" is something that has got some foundation in the language, because it logically makes sense etc. The same for "con yo" instead of "conmigo". If I wouldn't occasionally use that way of speaking (especially with less advanced languages on my list, not Spanish in particular), I would have far less possibilities of practicing and progressing.

I sort of expected that to be the case but wouldn't want to cast too many assumptions. In that case, I might even agree with you, but only in the case that you are conversing with a native. I do believe that making mistakes can help you learn, but only if your mistakes are immediately corrected so as not to become patterned behavior. I also think one should do this only out of necessity, i.e. should one be truly desperate to visit the cinema with a Spanish-speaker, but unsure how to conjugate "querer" (to want) then sure, spit it out. When I do translation exercises with a pen and paper I do not write down anything before consulting the key. I might verbalize the response and take a guess as best I can, and might miss some small issue that is immediately corrected and then commit my response to the page in that manner.

[SGP]

I sort of expected that to be the case but wouldn't want to cast too many assumptions.

And I appreciate that.

In that case, I might even agree with you, but only in the case that you are conversing with a native. I do believe that making mistakes can help you learn, but only if your mistakes are immediately corrected so as not to become patterned behavior.

This isn't entirely untrue at all. Anything that one continues to do for a long time can become a regular habit.

I also think one should do this only out of necessity, i.e. should one be truly desperate to visit the cinema with a Spanish-speaker, but unsure how to conjugate "querer" (to want) then sure, spit it out.

As for me, too, I also wouldn't want to use it more than necessary. Some others, like Benny Lewis, possibly would use it way more often because it is one of their own language learning approach's Key Ingredients. Unlike, e.g., mine.

When I do translation exercises with a pen and paper I do not write down anything before consulting the key.

Again, this really has some advantages.

[Kraut]

I've been exposed to the Spanish language my entire life. However, I never actually tried to practice or improve upon it until a little over two years ago. Over the past two years, I've worked very hard to improve my Spanish. I have not taken a formal exam, however, if I were to rate myself, I'd probably call myself a B2. I have almost no problems with listening comprehension, etc. My major issue is being able to produce native-sounding output. My constructions usually aren't natural sounding although they usually are grammatically correct. I've placed a very large emphasis on space-time repetition in the past and would like to shy away from it as much as possible to focus on speaking and listening. How can I solve my problem so that I can sound more native-like? At this point, I can, and actually sometimes do, live my entire life through Spanish.

It has been said before "Imitate the natives". It avoids you the trial and error phase. I find Tripadvisor comments a real gold mine: they are genuine Spanish of a semi-colloquial nature, little stories from different angles, emotional ... that try to get their message across.
I translate them into correct German, in such a way that I find back to the original when I back-translate.
I also record myself in sentence pairs German-Spanish on a minidisk player that I control with a remote to "endlessly repeat", "next","A-B repeat of a larger passage" etc
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