Upon completion of the passive wave of Assimil NFWE, will bandes dessinées be approachable?

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Cavesa
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Re: Upon completion of the passive wave of Assimil NFWE, will bandes dessinées be approachable?

Postby Cavesa » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:38 pm

Hmm, I don't know much about sci-fi BDs but these are those I started with (it's been a few years already) and I found them awesome and accessible:

http://www.bedetheque.com/serie-47-BD-P ... -Nuit.html
http://www.bedetheque.com/serie-99-BD-Ombres.html
http://www.bedetheque.com/serie-23-BD-T ... ament.html

They are all more of historical fantasy than anything else, perhaps with bits of horror in the case of the first two.

Apart of them, Asterix is certainly a good way to start reading, even though perhaps you might be too grown up for him (I am certainly not :-) )
Persepolis is really good, I agree. For some weird reason, I remember the library labeling the first tome or two B1 and the latter B2 even though I am not sure whether there is much of a difference.
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Re: Upon completion of the passive wave of Assimil NFWE, will bandes dessinées be approachable?

Postby zenmonkey » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:48 pm

SladeWilson wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:If sci-fi is your thing and you want to read BD's then may I suggest the following:
  • L'Incal - This is a series on John Difool, a character invented by Jodorowski that is sort of a cult figure ... It is written Alejandro Jodorowsky and illustrated by Moebius and others. Anything by Jodorwsky or Moebius is worth reading. There are 15-16 BDs in this series, I think.
  • Metabrons - Also by Jodorsowski - and loosely related to Incal
  • Bilal and his Nikopol Trilogy - quite different and a universe mixed with language ancient gods and sci-fi
  • And of course Metal Hurlant where everything started - The French anthology that was the flagship of Humanoids Associe, the publishing house and resulting in the US with with Heavy Metal comics...

Thanks! Starting to read BDs is my prime motivator at the moment. It wasn't why I started, but it's what's going to get me through Assimil, as I have trouble staying on track a lot of the time. I should probably already be able to read BDs by now, if I'm being honest. We can't all be as fervent about study just based on our love for the language though. I do have a love for French, but I kind of rest on my laurels after a bit of study and move on. That's why I need to push through Assimil faster, because if I leave it at one lesson a day I won't pick anything else up, and honestly I have trouble studying every day as well. It's a slow ride and I need to pick up steam before I lose everything I've gained.

It might be a long shot asking, but I've noticed a lot of people who read lots of American comics know enough about the work of certain writers and artists. You did mention Moebius and Alejandro Jodorowski and. I was wondering if you or someone have other artists or writers you'd recommend.


I'd recommend Windsor McKay (which can be found in French - Little Nemo), François Schuiten (his Obscure Cities series is a gem!!), Becassine (because it's a classic that I read when I first arrived in France), Les Pieds Nickeles, La Bete est Morte (WW2 BD from the 40s - a must read), Spirou...

I think that and emk's list should cover a lot of territory!
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Re: Upon completion of the passive wave of Assimil NFWE, will bandes dessinées be approachable?

Postby SladeWilson » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:56 pm

emk wrote:Definitely do look at Aldébaran and the following series, plus the other series by the same authors set in Africa. Try the first 5 pages of one of those, and let us know if those work for you.

At the moment, Aldébaran looks above my current level. Quite a lot of words I don't know that the illustrations aren't a total help with. Kenya, on the other hand, I'm missing surprisingly little here. It's more approachable. I know most of the words, it's likely I'm not understanding every instance a word is used differently, e.g. "Le monde est bien plus riche qu'on ne le croit!" I don't quite get the use of bien in this sentence. I would guess the sentence says "The world/everyone is (well) richer than we think!" But /well richer/ just feels weird in English. It's these difference I need to get used to more than anything. I tend most of the time to have one definition per French word I know, so when it gets used in another way I blank. But Kenya seems pretty approachable to me right now actually, based on the first five pages. I'm glad you mentioned it.

I don't want to quote everything in your post. So thanks for all the suggestions.

emk wrote:Izneo has an online reader (using Flash, I think), and a tablet reader for Android (at least). They use DRM. On the other hand, they'll sell you a lot of €20 books for €1 to €10, and "rent" them for less, and they had an "all you can eat" deal for €10/month that offers you a library of ~1,500 titles that change on a semi-regular basis. So overall, it's not necessarily a bad tradeoff. I still buy my favorite books on real paper though, when the budget permits!

OK, so it's like most English digital comic distributors, they just have a reader. Have you noticed any issues with it? My subscription with Marvel Unlimited is coming to an end sometime in October and there used to be some problems with the app (e.g. pages not loading). When you say they change, do you mean some titles are removed and others added in place or are they just building a bigger library all the time?
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Re: Upon completion of the passive wave of Assimil NFWE, will bandes dessinées be approachable?

Postby zenmonkey » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:12 pm

Bien plus ... que = well more ... than, abundantly more

So bien plus rich = well richer than, abundantly more rich than

Edit: way more?
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Re: Upon completion of the passive wave of Assimil NFWE, will bandes dessinées be approachable?

Postby emk » Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:34 am

SladeWilson wrote:Starting to read BDs is my prime motivator at the moment.
...
It might be a long shot asking, but I've noticed a lot of people who read lots of American comics know enough about the work of certain writers and artists. You did mention Moebius and Alejandro Jodorowski and. I was wondering if you or someone have other artists or writers you'd recommend.

If you're into comics, manga, and graphic novels, then French is definitely a good language to learn! The French-speaking world publishes a lot of titles, across many genres, and there's some excellent work.

If you're into the whole Moebius/Jodorowski vibe, then you definitely want to check out the whole Métal hurlant scene from the 70s and 80s, as zenmonkey suggested. This was hugely influential French magazine which inspired films (at least 3?), comics, the US magazine Heavy Metal, and all kinds of other surrealist SF around the world. These works often involve dystopian futures, nudity, graphic violence, and fairly inexplicable plots. If you're really into this sort of surrealist SF, and if you like experimental and artistic comics, then keep reading BDs and look up Enki Bilal a year from now.

SladeWilson wrote:Kenya, on the other hand, I'm missing surprisingly little here. It's more approachable. I know most of the words, it's likely I'm not understanding every instance a word is used differently, e.g. "Le monde est bien plus riche qu'on ne le croit!" I don't quite get the use of bien in this sentence. I would guess the sentence says "The world/everyone is (well) richer than we think!" But /well richer/ just feels weird in English. It's these difference I need to get used to more than anything. I tend most of the time to have one definition per French word I know, so when it gets used in another way I blank. But Kenya seems pretty approachable to me right now actually, based on the first five pages. I'm glad you mentioned it.

I'm glad you found an approachable book!

That's also a great sentence that you found: Le monde est bien plus riche qu'on ne le croit! "The world is much richer than we believe." In particular, bien is a versatile little world, and if you keep reading, you'll rapidly get a feel for how the French use it. As I'm sure you're quickly realizing, the best that a word-for-word translation can reasonably be expected to do is to get you into the general ballpark! Context and sheer exposure will help you to get used to the word, and it won't seem nearly so strange the 200th time you see it.

Looking at your mini-profile, is this the first time you've gotten into native media in a new language? If so, here are a few observations and bits of advice, in no particular order. Please ignore these if they don't seem helpful!

  • Don't hesitate to try a bunch of different books until you find ones that capture your attention. Using native media at A2 often requires shopping around a bunch.
  • If you do find a series that you like, and if you want to binge on 15 volumes, then go for it! It will get rapidly easier as you get used to the story and to the author's style. This is a technique called "narrow reading", and it can be very useful to establish a comprehension "beachhead" before gradually broadening out to other authors and genres.
  • A good rule of thumb for looking up words: Look up any words that you need to know in order to follow the plot, and look up any words that are becoming annoyingly familiar without actually becoming any more comprehensible. But feel free to skip words and guess, too—much will become clear with further exposure.
  • If you're a perfectionist, let it go. :-) There's a time to be a perfectionist about understanding everything (around C1 comprehension, when you want to fill in annoying little gaps). And there's a time to pick whatever low-hanging fruit you can reach, and to have faith that your brain will do a lot of the work for you, if only you expose it to enough French.
I'm not saying to never use a grammar book. Essential French Grammar is US$2 well spent. And if you like seeing stuff all laid out clearly, it's an excellent supplement to Assimil. But if you indulge yourself and wallow in cool graphic novels, you'll probably find that grammar study gets a lot easier, and that your intuition will help you more when you do study. Assimil lessons will feel more like reminders or clarifications, and less like intimidating lists of stuff that you have to learn somehow.

SladeWilson wrote:OK, so it's like most English digital comic distributors, they just have a reader. Have you noticed any issues with it?

I've seen better and worse readers than Izneo's. It has issues, but it's basically usable. I recommend either using the Flash-based reader in your browser, or the tablet reader on a 10" or 11" tablet, for best results. The Izneo unlimited subscription seems to have actual turnover: some titles go away, and others appear. But if you sign up for their mailing list, they'll send you some pretty good spam: free BDs, lists of cool stuff to read, and so on.
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Re: Upon completion of the passive wave of Assimil NFWE, will bandes dessinées be approachable?

Postby SladeWilson » Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:36 am

emk wrote:If you're into comics, manga, and graphic novels, then French is definitely a good language to learn! The French-speaking world publishes a lot of titles, across many genres, and there's some excellent work.

If you're into the whole Moebius/Jodorowski vibe, then you definitely want to check out the whole Métal hurlant scene from the 70s and 80s, as zenmonkey suggested. This was hugely influential French magazine which inspired films (at least 3?), comics, the US magazine Heavy Metal, and all kinds of other surrealist SF around the world. These works often involve dystopian futures, nudity, graphic violence, and fairly inexplicable plots. If you're really into this sort of surrealist SF, and if you like experimental and artistic comics, then keep reading BDs and look up Enki Bilal a year from now.

I'm sure I'll find something to wet my appetite.

emk wrote:Looking at your mini-profile, is this the first time you've gotten into native media in a new language?

In so few words, yes is the best answer. I've borrowed children's books from my library here and there but found them exceedingly difficult and easily gave up. News sites generally have no appeal. I would read them if it wasn't a struggle but most articles are just not interesting enough to bother with at this point. All that said, I've never really ran a site wide search for news stories that may be of particular interest to me. It's always been about what's current on the front page or sections of the site, so they've never really made that connection with me - why I don't visit them. Maybe I need to narrow the field.

emk wrote:
  • Don't hesitate to try a bunch of different books until you find ones that capture your attention. Using native media at A2 often requires shopping around a bunch.
  • If you do find a series that you like, and if you want to binge on 15 volumes, then go for it! It will get rapidly easier as you get used to the story and to the author's style. This is a technique called "narrow reading", and it can be very useful to establish a comprehension "beachhead" before gradually broadening out to other authors and genres.
  • A good rule of thumb for looking up words: Look up any words that you need to know in order to follow the plot, and look up any words that are becoming annoyingly familiar without actually becoming any more comprehensible. But feel free to skip words and guess, too—much will become clear with further exposure.
  • If you're a perfectionist, let it go. :-) There's a time to be a perfectionist about understanding everything (around C1 comprehension, when you want to fill in annoying little gaps). And there's a time to pick whatever low-hanging fruit you can reach, and to have faith that your brain will do a lot of the work for you, if only you expose it to enough French.

All very good advice. Thank you so much for taking the time.

emk wrote:I'm not saying to never use a grammar book. Essential French Grammar is US$2 well spent. And if you like seeing stuff all laid out clearly, it's an excellent supplement to Assimil. But if you indulge yourself and wallow in cool graphic novels, you'll probably find that grammar study gets a lot easier, and that your intuition will help you more when you do study. Assimil lessons will feel more like reminders or clarifications, and less like intimidating lists of stuff that you have to learn somehow.

I'll be sure to buy that.

emk wrote:I've seen better and worse readers than Izneo's. It has issues, but it's basically usable. I recommend either using the Flash-based reader in your browser, or the tablet reader on a 10" or 11" tablet, for best results. The Izneo unlimited subscription seems to have actual turnover: some titles go away, and others appear. But if you sign up for their mailing list, they'll send you some pretty good spam: free BDs, lists of cool stuff to read, and so on.

My tablet is 7 inch unfortunately. It's workable depending on the text-size (I find mangas do this the best, i.e. Viz and Crunchyroll, Marvel's is small), or if the app has a good guided view feature (Comixology is awesome at this, Marvel kind of sucks at times.) As long as I can zoom in and out though, we're in the clear.
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I previously completed 30 from 113 of Assimi's New French with Ease lessons.
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Re: Upon completion of the passive wave of Assimil NFWE, will bandes dessinées be approachable?

Postby Arnaud » Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:59 am

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