Minimal pairs Pashto and Urdu

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Takra jenai
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Minimal pairs Pashto and Urdu

Postby Takra jenai » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:12 am

In phonology minimal pairs are pairs of words or phrases in a particular language, which differ in only one phonological element, such as a phone, phoneme and have distinct meanings


I tried to find some recorded examples, but didn't succeed.
Can anyone help?
Thank you.
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aokoye
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Re: Minimal pairs Pashto and Urdu

Postby aokoye » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:43 pm

Have you googled "minimal pairs pashto"? I was able to find a number of hits on the first few pages. Another option would be looking for linguistics books and articles specifically on pashto and on urdu(/hindi).
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Takra jenai
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Re: Minimal pairs Pashto and Urdu

Postby Takra jenai » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:55 pm

I have indeed googled, found nothing. Some pdfs.
I mean audio or video recordings.

A minimal pair, an example in English, for people who don't know what it is.
leg - lag
pat - pit
bird - Bert
and so on.

I naively thought that it's ABC for creators of languages courses. It turns out the majority of them are illiterate; experts my foot.
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Re: Minimal pairs Pashto and Urdu

Postby aokoye » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:51 pm

Takra jenai wrote:I naively thought that it's ABC for creators of languages courses. It turns out the majority of them are illiterate; experts my foot.


Why would you think including minimal pairs it would be? It sounds like you need learn the pronunciation rules for the various languages you want to learn. I've never felt the need to study minimal pairs and I've never seen them used extensively anywhere outside of a strictly linguistic phonological analysis or teaching English to children of whom English is their native language (I wouldn't be surprised if other languages are taught to children that way but as I've never helped a child learn a first language that isn't English I'll defer to other people for that one). Actually that's not entirely true, I've seen them used in various French textbooks but definitely not in German textbooks that are the same level (likely because of how orthographically deep French is compared to German.

It might behoove you to learn the IPA (international phonetic alphabet) if you're feeling that you need audio but can't find it.

In terms of other resources, you should really look up the Hindi/Urdu Flagship at UTexas Austin - they have a wealth of free materials online including audio resources.

Also a good website for pronunciations is Forvo.com.
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Re: Minimal pairs Pashto and Urdu

Postby Takra jenai » Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:17 pm

When I started to learn English minimal pairs and phonetic transcription were introduced at the beginning. And it wasn't a textbook for linguists, far from it.
How on earth can you learn proper pronunciation without minimal pairs and the inventory of the phonemes?
You'll just mispronounce them in your native way and then have trouble with listening comprehension, spelling, and your listeners will have to be very patient, to put it mildly.
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Re: Minimal pairs Pashto and Urdu

Postby daegga » Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:38 pm

For stops in Hindi (and Urdu i suppose):
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/vowels/ch ... hindi.html
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Re: Minimal pairs Pashto and Urdu

Postby Takra jenai » Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:56 pm

Thanks.
That's exactly what I meant by minimal pairs.
There are some pretty wierd sounds there. But it's only a subset...
I need more.

There are many languages there. The course seems interesting. You can download everything too.
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Re: Minimal pairs Pashto and Urdu

Postby aokoye » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:31 pm

Takra jenai wrote:When I started to learn English minimal pairs and phonetic transcription were introduced at the beginning. And it wasn't a textbook for linguists, far from it.
How on earth can you learn proper pronunciation without minimal pairs and the inventory of the phonemes?
You'll just mispronounce them in your native way and then have trouble with listening comprehension, spelling, and your listeners will have to be very patient, to put it mildly.


Languages that aren't orthographically deep (English and French don't fall into that category) are pretty easy, from everything I've experienced and seen in others, to learn how to pronounce without the usage of things like minimal pairs. Really it just takes learning how letters and diphthongs (or in the case of japanese, kana) are pronounced. It, for seemingly a lot of people, isn't that complex.

For kicks I'm looking at my collection of language learning books, specifically for beginners in German, Dutch, Swedish, Danish, French, Spanish, Italian, Russian, Turkish, Japanese, Chinese, and Biblical Hebrew (I collect language primers). The range in books includes books for self teaching (Colloquial and Teach Yourself), a few written for the English speaking higher education market, and the bulk are directed at language learners who are learning their L2 in the country in which it is spoken. After thumbing through 18 books aimed at beginners the only books that did any work with minimal pairs were the chinese books. The other books spent time not on minimal pairs but rather on the pronunciation of specific sounds or things like like the French liaison. The most French books actually spent nearly as much if not the same amount of space on pronunciation ("phonétique") as the Chinese ones did (I looked at Integrated Chinese and the New Practical Chinese Reader).

Again, most of the books I was looking at are aimed primarily at people who are learning the language in the country it is spoken in - clearly the goal is for people to be understood. I think, however, that your notion that one needs to have minimal pairs in order to learn how to pronounce words, aid in listening comprehension, and aid in spelling really isn't true for everyone. One can learn many languages without needing to focus on minimal pairs. Does pronunciation need to be focused on? Yes of course. That doesn't, however, mean that minimal pairs are essential in the learning of all languages or perhaps even languages in most language families. The textbooks I have bare that out. Having spent 9 months in Vienna without spending any time on minimal pairs I don't remember there being many issues in terms of me being understood by people (in relation to pronunciation). When I visited France everyone spoke to me in French and when I would attempt to speak French with them (these were in situations like being in coffee shops, restaurants, bakeries, and I think I may have managed to buy a concert ticket in French - somehow) they would happily continue in French despite the fact that I hadn't studied any French up to that point (basically I asked my friend who was studying in Lyon to teach me how to count to five, ask for tap water, say please and thank you, and ask for where the bathroom was).
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Re: Minimal pairs Pashto and Urdu

Postby Takra jenai » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:45 pm

I disagree on that particular point.
For me it's a matter of time and quality.
I'm sure you're not trying to tell me that 'sink, think, sing' are pronounced the same in English, but they are by most Polish learners.
'Wine' is not the same as 'vine' as some Germans say it.


I wouldn't like to sound the way Ziauddin does:
Ziauddin Yousafzai: My daughter, Malala
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4mmeN8gv9o
Do you understand him? I do.

I did have a look at some Urdu textbooks for English speakers. They annoyed me no end.
No minimal pairs, no pronunciation. And boring like hell.
My illiterate late mother would have created a better one, as far as content goes.
Last edited by Takra jenai on Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Minimal pairs Pashto and Urdu

Postby aokoye » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:53 pm

I think we're speaking past each other (or perhaps you're just speaking past me). I am not saying that pronunciation isn't important or necessary. I'm saying that minimal pairs aren't the end all and be all of pronunciation. You personally might absolutely need minimal pairs to learn pronunciation in a specific language but that isn't true for everyone.

Further more this:

I naively thought that it's ABC for creators of languages courses. It turns out the majority of them are illiterate; experts my foot.


Is both offensive and incorrect. Question for you? Are you speaking to speakers of Pashto and Hindi/Urdu as part of your attempts to learn those languages?
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