Mixing African and Caribbean English

[SGP]

How to mix both of African and Caribbean English in a way that is (at least mostly) understood by people on those both continents?

This question is about the whole Caribbean, it isn't restricted to any certain country like Jamaica.
But I am also interested in the purely linguistical aspects of Patois/Patwa.

Also, this question is about how to mix both of African and Caribbean English in a way that replaces all of the British and American English words. Not having any ish' with BE or AE, but this forum is about... you know... languages.

[iguanamon]

How to mix both of African and Caribbean English in a way that is (at least mostly) understood by people on those both continents?
This question is about the whole Caribbean, it isn't restricted to any certain country like Jamaica.
But I am also interested in the purely linguistical aspects of Patois/Patwa.
Also, this question is about how to mix both of African and Caribbean English in a way that replaces all of the British and American English words. Not having any ish' with BE or AE, but this forum is about... you know... languages.

My advice is to not even try. As someone who has lived and is living in the Caribbean on an English-speaking island, as an English-speaking outsider your attempt at English Creole would not be appreciated by native-speakers. It would most likely be seen as mocking them, and, depending upon your race, could even be seen as being disrespectful or racist. Sorry to be blunt about this. I know you are into languages. If you become friends with local speakers, over the long-term, you can speak it with them with more acceptance... but it takes time getting to know people over a long term, becoming genuine friends. I can't speak for Africa as I've never been to Sub-Saharan Africa. I can only speak for where I live.

When you speak of "Patwa", here in the Virgin Islands that word doesn't mean the local English-creole. It means French Creole from "down-island", or as in my profile- Lesser Antilles French Creole from Dominica, Saint Lucia, Trinidad, Guadeloupe and Martinique. Speaking LAFC is appreciated by the native-speakers I've encountered and has been a rewarding and enriching experience for me. There are a few resources available for learning it from both a French and English base. My advice would be to learn Haitian Creole first. Drop by the Haitian Creole Study Group for my list of resources.

[SGP]

My advice is to not even try. As someone who has lived and is living in the Caribbean on an English-speaking island, as an English-speaking outsider your attempt at English Creole would not be appreciated by native-speakers. It would most likely be seen as mocking them, and, depending upon your race, could even be seen as being disrespectful or racist.

Good to know that there may be a potential pitfall. Because speaking of Africans, I had several opposite experiences in the past. Some even went as far as telling a few persons (either myself, or a few others who also adopted some of the African behavior, maybe not wanting to tell right now if it was me or someone else) that they even can call them N . . . . . , because they know that they wouldn't mean it in an offensive way. They nevertheless weren't called like this by those persons, but still... this did mean something.

When you speak of "Patwa", here in the Virgin Islands that word doesn't mean the local English-creole. It means French Creole from "down-island", or as in my profile- Lesser Antilles French Creole from Dominica, Saint Lucia, Trinidad, Guadeloupe and Martinique. Speaking LAFC is appreciated by the native-speakers I've encountered and has been a rewarding and enriching experience for me. There are a few resources available for learning it from both a French and English base. My advice would be to learn Haitian Creole first.

I do intend to take a closer look at the Haitian Creole, but I need a better understanding of French first, otherwise I could easily mix them up unintentionally.

And now I wonder what the exact cultural reason for this difference may be. By "difference" I mean that speaking an English Caribbean creole could lead to some misunderstandings as you mentioned, while speaking a certain French Caribbean creole would be appreciated.

[iguanamon]

...And now I wonder what the exact cultural reason for this difference may be. By "difference" I mean that speaking an English Caribbean creole could lead to some misunderstandings as you mentioned, while speaking a certain French Caribbean creole would be appreciated.

Almost all speakers of a Caribbean English Creole speak and understand standard English perfectly well, natively, on all the islands. Education and public life- government interaction, is all English- media too- radio, television, films, books. People have traveled to, or have family in, the US/Britian/Canada and many have returned home from having lived there. Since their knowledge of Standard English is on a native level... trying to speak Creole English, as an outsider, with them (as I have said) would be seen as disrespectful.

Whereas for speakers of French Creoles here, an English-speaker who has learned their language is seen as a sign of respect for them and their culture. In Haiti, only about 5% of the population is fluent in Standard French. On the English-speaking islands here almost no French Creole-speaker is fluent in standard French. So there is no disrespect to their linguistic ability as relates to French in the same way that there would be if an English-speaker tries to speak English Creole to them as fluent speakers of English. It's complicated and tinged with status, racism and disrespect.

It would be similar to an English-speaker going to the US South and trying to speak a southern dialect of English with native southerners or if I as an American went to Australia and tried to speak "Strine" or, if I went to England and tried to speak Geordie in Newcastle. Though, as a non-native who has lived all over the English-speaking world, certain words and phrases come into your language the more time you live in a place. For instance, we don't say "Good evening" here. We say "Good night" to mean "good evening". If I want another drink in a bar here, I'll ask for a "next". If someone is coming to the house, I'll say, "Call me when you reach"... but this doesn't rise to the level of pure dialect.

I have never been to Guadeloupe or Martinique where standard French is the official language. So I don't know yet about the reaction there. The one time I met someone from Martinique, I spoke French Creole with her. She asked me if I spoke French and she was very surprised when I said that I didn't. She was fine with it and curious about how and why I learned Kwéyòl... as most people who speak minority languages are when they hear someone speaking a less commonly learned language. It's all about respect when speaking a language. That respect is what those who speak the language natively interpret it as being.

[SGP]

It would be similar to an English-speaker going to the US South and trying to speak a southern dialect of English with native southerners or if I as an American went to Australia and tried to speak "Strine" or, if I went to England and tried to speak Geordie in Newcastle.

I see... now there is more clarity. So the iguana basically told me that speaking Caribbean English as a non-Caribbean person, and outside of a situation where it is (rather exceptionally) appreciated, this is like intentionally speaking Engrish (again, without a sufficient reason) to Japanese persons. [Related to the mockery aspect only, while Caribbean English is a language using the broader definition, but Engrish isn't]. Now I get it.

[Chung]

It would be similar to an English-speaker going to the US South and trying to speak a southern dialect of English with native southerners or if I as an American went to Australia and tried to speak "Strine" or, if I went to England and tried to speak Geordie in Newcastle.

I see... now there is more clarity. So the iguana basically told me that speaking Caribbean English as a non-Caribbean person, and outside of a situation where it is (rather exceptionally) appreciated, this is like intentionally speaking Engrish (again, without a sufficient reason) to Japanese persons. [Related to the mockery aspect only, while Caribbean English is a language using the broader definition, but Engrish isn't]. Now I get it.

I'd say it'd be more as if I, the foreign learner/speaker of German, were trying hard to speak some form of Schwäbisch while doing grocery shopping or visiting a bar in Tübingen.

[SGP]

I'd say it'd be more as if I, the foreign learner/speaker of German, were trying hard to speak some form of Schwäbisch while doing grocery shopping or visiting a bar in Tübingen.

Possibly it really is more like this, and not like speaking Engrish, I don't really know... But whatever the case may be, things are more clear now than before.

What remains is that I am still trying to figure out (more), at least speaking of Africans, when exactly they would appreciate it when someone is speaking their way, and when they wouldn't do so. One way of course would be simply to tell them why one would like to do so, and then to continue that way if they are open to that idea.

[Jaleel10]

As an African I can tell you that it is almost never okay. Like Iguanamon said, a lot of them would definitely take offence to it.

[SGP]

As an African I can tell you that it is almost never okay. Like Iguanamon said, a lot of them would definitely take offence to it.

When iguanamon told me that Caribbean people would take it as an offense in many cases, the other part (about Africans) also became at least more clear to me.

But what if I asked an African whom I talk to, "you know, I really like Many Things Africa. What if I spoke African English to you?", and then he accepted? Because this is what already happened several times in the past, no matter if it was about myself or about others. And no matter if it literally was asked that way, or if it was done because it already was clear to this person with an African background that one simply likes talking their way because it can feel even refreshing sometimes and also because of appreciating Many Things Africa.

Also, I remember a specific conversation about Spanish. The person I was talking to said that Spanish is the same language, no matter where it is spoken. Then I responded using a certain mix of non-Western English variants, and it seemed to me that the other person understood my motivation for doing so.

[EDIT: When you said that as an African, you can tell me that it almost never is okay, did you mean starting to speak that way without knowing that they like it? Or did you even mean asking about the sole possibility of talking to them in this variant of English?]

(This topic really is very interesting, I definitely intend to cover it in the "the language called communication" log too at a later point.)

[Jaleel10]

But what if I asked an African whom I talk to, "you know, I really like Many Things Africa. What if I spoke African English to you?"

I'm curious, what do you consider African English? Is it the accent, the slang?

I mean, if you want to use the slang of the country or region your in, I'm all for it, it's very common in South Africa. But imitating a persons accent can definitely be seen as rude, regardless of race or origin. Also keep in mind that not every Sub-Saharan African country has English as an official language, in fact only 11 out of the 49 countries do.