Mixing African and Caribbean English

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SGP
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Re: Mixing African and Caribbean English

Postby SGP » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:20 am

Jaleel10 wrote:I'm curious, what do you consider African English? Is it the accent, the slang?


Yes, both. It is about things like pronouncing the "thorn" sound ("thank you") as a T, and the other th ("them") as "d".

And it is also about using slang, which includes both words that aren't found in Standard Western English, and also changing others a bit. One example (possibly Congo/Niger/Nigeria or some other countries) would be:
ask -> aks.

I mean, if you want to use the slang of the country or region your in, I'm all for it, it's very common in South Africa. But imitating a persons accent can definitely be seen as rude, regardless of race or origin. Also keep in mind that not every Sub-Saharan African country has English as an official language, in fact only 11 out of the 49 countries do.


Sure, they got others too, like French, Swahili and many others.
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Re: Mixing African and Caribbean English

Postby SGP » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:42 am

Two directly related (on-topic) posts about non-natives speaking African or Caribbean English, and about the "possible offense" part:

Way of speech: Intentionally Switching To A Certain Dialect Such As Caribbean Or African English

Pattern of behavior: Considering Things As What They Seem At First Glance
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Re: Mixing African and Caribbean English

Postby Skynet » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:02 pm

SGP wrote: Good to know that there may be a potential pitfall. Because speaking of Africans, I had several opposite experiences in the past. Some even went as far as telling a few persons (either myself, or a few others who also adopted some of the African behavior, maybe not wanting to tell right now if it was me or someone else) that they even can call them N . . . . . , because they know that they wouldn't mean it in an offensive way. They nevertheless weren't called like this by those persons, but still... this did mean something.

How odd indeed. I am an African who has never understood this duplicity: It's OK for another African/African-American to use the "N" word, but is not OK for a non-African/non-African American to use it.

As for speaking your English/French/Spanish/Portuguese with an accent in Africa (or anywhere else, for that matter) I would tread carefully. Natives appreciate that you are trying to communicate, but if they detect the slightest hint of sarcasm/satire/mockery in your poorly-replicated accent, they will promptly defenestrate you. In Zimbabwe (and southern Africa), it's always done in a mocking and condescending way, and is never appreciated. Speaking in one's native accent, but at a slower cadence, is always the better choice.
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Re: Mixing African and Caribbean English

Postby SGP » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:16 pm

Skynet wrote:As for speaking your English/French/Spanish/Portuguese with an accent in Africa (or anywhere else, for that matter) I would tread carefully. Natives appreciate that you are trying to communicate, but if they detect the slightest hint of sarcasm/satire/mockery in your poorly-replicated accent, they will promptly defenestrate you. In Zimbabwe (and southern Africa), it's always done in a mocking and condescending way, and is never appreciated. Speaking in one's native accent, but at a slower cadence, is always the better choice.


It is of course my very intention not to do anything that can cause these troubles.

And especially what you mentioned about Zimbabwe and southern Africa is definitely among all of those Communication Bigger Picture Mosaic Stones that my main project on this forum is about. (It used to be the main 13 languages log, but there has been a change).

As for speaking in the native accent, as you know, I am not a native of English :).

But there is something else I'd like to add.

For a long time, whenever I would start to speak English, I have been (and this still is the case even today) defaulting to the African way unless I intentionally do some additional actions to use American English instead. This is about things like pronouncing the TH as in "thank you" as a T and some more.

"Defaulting" as in "using it per default, unless a different option is selected by myself".

[EDIT: I also am keeping in mind that using African English could sound offensive to Africans who aren't familiar with my reasons for doing so. As opposed to some who do know them, there have been "too many" examples in the past of them appreciating it, thus leading to a better mutual communication experience. But still, when I decide to switch to American English for the purpose of not causing a possible offense, this means selecting a different option rather than using the default setting.]
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Re: Mixing African and Caribbean English

Postby SGP » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:50 am

Skynet wrote:
SGP wrote: Good to know that there may be a potential pitfall. Because speaking of Africans, I had several opposite experiences in the past. Some even went as far as telling a few persons (either myself, or a few others who also adopted some of the African behavior, maybe not wanting to tell right now if it was me or someone else) that they even can call them N . . . . . , because they know that they wouldn't mean it in an offensive way. They nevertheless weren't called like this by those persons, but still... this did mean something.

How odd indeed. I am an African who has never understood this duplicity: It's OK for another African/African-American to use the "N" word, but is not OK for a non-African/non-African American to use it.


Recently I had a (written) conversation with someone who asked me why exactly some (non-specified and not speaking about anybody on the forum) Africans possibly would offer a non-African to call them N . . . . . ., and I'd simply like to share that answer with you, too ("too" because yesterday I already shared something else I wrote to someone, but that was in another subforum).

So this has been my answer (I shortened it a bit, but it still has the same basic message):

When an African tells a Caucasian (using it in the broader sense now) that he really can call him N . . . . . . , of course not every single case would necessarily be the same. However, there are some behavioral general patterns related to this.

They are more inclined to making such an offer when they know that the other (Non-African) person has a genuine interest in Many Things Africa. In addition to that person being someone who also strongly dislikes a certain pre-1945 dictator. Also, if that particular person would already have been speaking to them in African English because of knowing that they appreciate it, this is another token (symbolical) gesture being made by the Non-African person that they really could like. This is because in this case (unlike speaking to them their way when they dislike it because of not knowing the motivation or thinking that it is mockery, etc.), one intentionally isn't using American English, but preferring African English instead, which is something African after all :).

So all of this can contribute to themselves considering a particular person as someone who is "not entirely non-African" or even "somehow African by heart, even if the color is different". And within that framework, there is the possibility of that offer being made, maybe, just maybe without even mentioning that "N . . . . . " topic. However, that didn't happen to me. Instead, I was the one who mentioned it in a very subtle way, but I only did so for the purpose of knowing his exact point of view on it, not because I expected or even really imagined the very possibility of that offer.

[Side-note: Not having any issue with American English, using it all the time in this forum.]

One of the Africans who offered it to me told me (and they were a very few only), "You can call me like that, that's no stress. Because I know you, and I know that you wouldn't mean it in the way others do".

And as for another one, I simply was talking to him about Africans severely disliking being called like that. Then he immediately told me nothing more but, "You can call me N . . . . . .".

[But still, even when a particular African really makes this offer, there still are several possible pitfalls. I personally do not recommend at all calling them like this even after the offer has been made, for some reasons mentioned here:

A culturally relevant but really rare pattern of behavior: Some Africans telling some non-African persons that if they would call them N . . . . . . one day, they wouldn't have the slightest issue with it ]
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Re: Mixing African and Caribbean English

Postby Skynet » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:54 pm

I find this to be most deviant indeed. Why would anyone allow themselves to be called by a name with exceptionally negative connotations? This question will always baffle me. What you chronicled is idiosyncratic to people who still suffer from what appears to be Stockholm syndrome.

For example, as a German native, would you allow non-Germans and Germans alike to call you the "K" or "B" words that came about from WW1 and WW2? As a member of the Caucasian race, would you allow a non-Caucasian - or any other human for that matter - call you by an ethnic slur? The expected answer is no.

My default response to such slurs is to laugh hysterically at the person/people who think(s) that they can denigrate me with their words.
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Re: Mixing African and Caribbean English

Postby SGP » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:04 pm

Skynet wrote:I find this to be most deviant indeed. Why would anyone allow themselves to be called by a name with exceptionally negative connotations? This question will always baffle me. What you chronicled is idiosyncratic to people who still suffer from what appears to be Stockholm syndrome.


Took notice of what you wrote about your POV related to that syndrome. :).

And about that particular N word... while there is some major overlap with other words that carry negative connotations only, there also is one difference.

Related to both its Latin origin and the (somewhere and in some places) still existing active use.
Latin "niger" means "black", as in "the color/non-color black". And this word still is alive in some other languages and places, there even are two countries called Niger and Nigeria.
Having said that, I only mentioned all of this because of some on-topic significance. Not calling anyone N ...., even if he himself would agree.

Skynet wrote:For example, as a German native, would you allow non-Germans and Germans alike to call you the "K" or "B" words that came about from WW1 and WW2? As a member of the Caucasian race, would you allow a non-Caucasian - or any other human for that matter - call you by an ethnic slur? The expected answer is no.


Not sure right now about what the "K" and "B" words are.
But as for the overall idea: answering with no just as you did.
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Re: Mixing African and Caribbean English

Postby Deinonysus » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:39 pm

SGP wrote:Took notice of what you wrote about your POV related to that syndrome. :).

And about that particular N word... while there is some major overlap with other words that carry negative connotations only, there also is one difference.

Related to both its Latin origin and the (somewhere and in some places) still existing active use.
Latin "niger" means "black", as in "the color/non-color black". And this word still is alive in some other languages and places, there even are two countries called Niger and Nigeria.
Having said that, I only mentioned all of this because of some on-topic significance. Not calling anyone N ...., even if he himself would agree.
I'm sure most people on this forum have heard of Nigeria, one of the most populous countries in the world, as well as Niger. And I'm sure most people on this forum are also aware of the Latin etymology of this slur. Possible innocent interpretations of an offensive term, or etymologically related innocent terms, do not make the term inoffensive.

There is an offensive term for my ethnic group that probably comes from the Yiddish word for a little circle. If you are talking to someone in Yiddish and the subject of little circles comes up, then of course it will not be offensive for you to talk about the little circle. But this innocent etymologically related word does not make the slur inoffensive.

Imagine that a foreigner came to Germany with a Charlie Chaplin moustache, wearing a certain Indian geometric good luck symbol, and performing a historically accurate Roman salute. All of these things may have possible innocent origins, but I don't think the local Germans would take kindly to this individual and he would probably be carted away by the police.

Even talking about the N word will make most Americans very uncomfortable, whether or not they are black. It is almost never okay for a white person to use this word, even if a single black person says it's okay. The few white people who can "get away with it" are actors or comedians who are generally portraying ignorant characters, exploring the topic of racism, or even just going for shock humor. These are people with an extremely nuanced understanding of where the line between humor and hate speech lies, and even then people get in trouble for it all the time. I would advise almost anyone to avoid the use of this word, especially someone who has self-described communication problems.

I would also advise you to avoid imitating the various accents of black English speakers around the world. I understand that you aren't trying to make fun of anyone, but it's honestly pretty uncomfortable to read.
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Re: Mixing African and Caribbean English

Postby SGP » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:24 pm

Deinonysus wrote:I'm sure most people on this forum have heard of Nigeria, one of the most populous countries in the world, as well as Niger. And I'm sure most people on this forum are also aware of the Latin etymology of this slur. Possible innocent interpretations of an offensive term, or etymologically related innocent terms, do not make the term inoffensive.
I, too, am among those who do confirm that usually it is offensive.
What I wrote was about pointing out that there also is one single difference between a word like N..... and other words that couldn't even possibly be interpreted, speaking of their literal meaning, as inoffensive.

And pointing out that there is one difference was about taking a closer look at the detailed reasons for some Africans offering a few others to call them like this. Because it is possible that among their reasons is that those particular Africans themselves do view that term as something that could be used for the color only in a few cases, while they wouldn't accept it in most of them because what also usually is connected to that word.

Deinonysus wrote:Imagine that a foreigner came to Germany with a Charlie Chaplin moustache, wearing a certain Indian geometric good luck symbol, and performing a historically accurate Roman salute. All of these things may have possible innocent origins, but I don't think the local Germans would take kindly to this individual and he would probably be carted away by the police.


Even without providing examples like these I do realize that referring to the origin only isn't enough to avoid the very real probability of offense. Generally speaking. And that particular moustache etc. example, things like the sole idea of doing them I simply fully detest (as in: hate) anyway.

Deinonysus wrote:Even talking about the N word will make most Americans very uncomfortable, whether or not they are black. It is almost never okay for a white person to use this word, even if a single black person says it's okay.
Also I am aware of the fact that a single African stating that it is personally OK to him doesn't change the general public's stance on it.

Deinonysus wrote:The few white people who can "get away with it" are actors or comedians who are generally portraying ignorant characters, exploring the topic of racism, or even just going for shock humor. These are people with an extremely nuanced understanding of where the line between humor and hate speech lies, and even then people get in trouble for it all the time. I would advise almost anyone to avoid the use of this word, especially someone who has self-described communication problems.
Advising against using it, even if a few particular Africans would offer it, is also what I have been doing when I wrote something about it in this forum.

Deinonysus wrote:I would also advise you to avoid imitating the various accents of black English speakers around the world.
Not intending to spawn any micro-discussion that could be close to hairsplitting, but I just wanted to mention (again) that in my case, it isn't really about what is usually meant by imitation. Instead, whenever I speak (as in: verbally express myself) English, I am, because of my many, many conversations with Africans in the past, defaulting to African English (containing a few Caribbean elements as well, because it is not just the Caribbean population who "borrowed" something from African English, later, a reverse "borrowing" also occured). So unless I decide against using my default English setting, it is African. But I am not using it unless I know that the person/s I talk to appreciate/s it. For the sake of providing complete information: I even have met Africans who, in case I started switching to American English when speaking to them, either wouldn't have liked it at all, or would at least, for example, have started to wonder "what happened to me" :).

Deinonysus wrote:I understand that you aren't trying to make fun of anyone, but it's honestly pretty uncomfortable to read.
I acknowledge that this is your stance on it, and this clue also aids in realizing that others can feel the same way, too. While I do know that there are many others (no matter if they are in this forum or somewhere else) who either don't care about it or even like/love it, what you just mentioned is a good reason for me to usually avoid it outside of my log dedicated to it. There might be a few threads sometimes were things could be different because of a different context, circumstances etc. But I do intend to usually avoid it outside of that log.

However, it still can happen that I drop a few of those words sometimes, because in the case of verbal speech, as I just mentioned, I am even using it per default unless I do some additional efforts to switch to pure American English.
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Re: Mixing African and Caribbean English

Postby SGP » Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:30 am

As a follow-up to my previous post in this thread, now a certain person from all of this forum's many members gave me some PM input on the topic I mentioned in that post. But of course not even thinking of neither naming the person who contacted me nor providing even the slightest remote hint.

Anyone who would have something on his/her mind about my previous post in this thread could simply could tell me more about it in another thread:

https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9406&p=122382#p122382
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