Efficacy of "stacking" programs

[iguanamon]

As I've said in my signature link, the multi-track approach, I have learned using a couple of courses simultaneously. It worked well for me. I usually devoted an hour to an hour and a half in the mornings to a text (with audio) based course (DLI Basic) plus puzzling out some comprehensible native material. Later in the day, I'd do a Pimsleur lesson and maybe again before going to bed. That's about all I can handle. My brain needs time to rest, think, consolidate and revitalize. I don't think I could do all that in one three hour session and I don't think it would be as effective.

The human equation can't be taken out of language-learning. We are not computers. Just as some folks think that their language-learning will improve by throwing more money at it (usually incorrectly), some folks think the answer is to throw more time at it... which is usually just as counter-productive. There's a "sweet spot" to be found for each of us.

Most popular, big languages have a plethora of learner resources. A language learner doesn't need to do all of them or even most of them. We have had more than a few here who have tried to do that and ended up stuck in course world for a significantly longer period of time than most successful learners do... some for years. Not even Peter Mollenburg could do every single French course on the planet for English-speakers, though he did give it a good try.

In my post on the multi-track approach, I talk about using two complementary courses, like a text with audio course (DLI Basic, FSI Basic, Assimil, TY, Living Language, Linguaphone, etc) and an audio only course (Pimsleur, Michael Thomas, Language Transfer, Paul Noble, FSI Drills audio only, Book 2 audio only, vocabulearn). Picking one from both categories and putting some time between them is what worked well for me. I could listen to Pimsleur in the car, on my morning walk, doing dishes, etc. I could wake up an hour early and study my DLI Basic Course in the morning before everyone else awoke.

Enthusiasm is a good thing for learning a language, but it can also be a language-learner's worst enemy. Being overly enthusiastic, "irrationally exuberant", can lead an adult monolingual beginner to think they can study multiple languages simultaneously successfully... with almost always unsuccessful results. It can also lead said learner to think that courses/srs are all they need and then get stuck in course/srs world which leads to frustration and thinking that they need even more course/srs or to repeat course/srs.

So instead of stacking three courses and anki/srs, try doing two complementary course at different times in the day, listen to TL music throughout the day. Maybe puzzle out a tweet, a quote, a stanza of a song or something equally short and simple in the TL to get used to working with the language outside of course-world. Before you know it, synergy will start to work its magic, but it won't have a chance if you don't give it a chance. If you overload yourself the results are predictably bad. I always tell people that it doesn't matter what materials they use as long as they are consistent and persistent in what they do. (Caveat- no more than two complementary courses!) For an adult monolingual beginner, trying to learn their first second language- consistency and persistence are 80% of the task. Like Woody Allen said: "80% of life is just showing up." (corrected spelling and grammar in this sentence)

[Ani]

I agree that it doesn't make sense to do several courses based on spaced repetition in parallel, but lots of lessons of one per day presents a similar problem and it does leave the question of what does one do with the rest of the time? Every so often we do get a beginner who has the summer off or something, has a good few hours per day to dedicate to language study, and wants to know how to make the most of that time. Unfortunately I don't think that studying a new language for five hours per day as a beginner is realistic unless it's quite close to one you already know, so it's a bit of a moot question, even if I always feel bad about saying so to somebody who has that rare combination of time and enthusiasm. I simply cannot take in any more than 30-60 minutes of material per day in something like Russian or Greek, which is just enough for one or two lessons of a typical course.
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Just for clarity on the thread, the OP already has had exposure to the language previously. He says 3.5 semesters of Russian classes so we're talking about a bit of revival & relearning here.

[Skynet]

Every so often we do get a beginner who has the summer off or something, has a good few hours per day to dedicate to language study, and wants to know how to make the most of that time. Unfortunately I don't think that studying a new language for five hours per day as a beginner is realistic unless it's quite close to one you already know, so it's a bit of a moot question, even if I always feel bad about saying so to somebody who has that rare combination of time and enthusiasm.

I have absolutely no idea what you could be talking about looking innocently to the side

I probably wouldn't/couldn't do Pimsleur+Glossika+Assimil simultaneously

I would never consider Pimsleur's six-new-words-per-30-min-of-mostly-English courses and certainly could not be able to use Glossika without having at least some semblance of post-Assimil knowledge of the TL.

As I've said in my signature link, the multi-track approach...

1. If you are a perfectionist, don’t follow this advice, it won’t help.

I read the MTA and had heart palpitations as I overrode my language learning OCD protocol. I will reduce my current German courses from 14 to just 6. (Compared to 28 for French, this is a massive leap of faith...but why not experiment with a proven-to-be-successful method?) Thank-you for adding an extra dimension to learning German.

Most popular, big languages have a plethora of learner resources. A language learner doesn't need to do all of them or even most of them. We have had more than a few here who have tried to do that and ended up stuck in course world for a significantly longer period of time than most successful learners do... some for years. Not even Peter Mollenburg could do every single French course on the planet for English-speakers, though he did give it a good try.

Paradoxically, the reason that I only had 14 courses for German (and not 28) was because I couldn't find many German courses in the library.

Iguanamon, would keeping a graded professional course like Langenscheidt Aspekte B2 be considered a violation of MTA if one is learning a language not just for the fun of it, but to be officially certified in it?

[iguanamon]

... Iguanamon, would keeping a graded professional course like Langenscheidt Aspekte B2 be considered a violation of MTA if one is learning a language not just for the fun of it, but to be officially certified in it?

Unfortunately, I am not familiar with Langenscheidt's courses but I do know that the company has a stellar reputation. A good intermediate course/workbook used alongside native materials and interaction can be of help at the intermediate level... as long as you don't expect the course to do all the heavy lifting for you. I wish you great success!

[kanewai]

I think a lot depends on the specific languages and the courses.

When I have the time, and I'm focusing more intently on a single language, I almost always stack. This has worked, even when the courses are nominally similar (such as Michel Thomas and Pimsleur for German). Usually, though, I pick an audio course for my commute, and a more visual course for home. If I am going to put in intensive time with only one method I'll use a more comprehensive course, like FSI.

But ... this method totally failed me with Arabic. Every course seemed to approach Arabic from a different angle, and used a different register, and even focused on a different dialect (all the while claiming to be 'standard' Arabic). It ended up confusing me more than anything else, and I had to pick one course at a time. I'm finding a similar problem currently with Japanese - it feels like Pimsleur and Assimil clash more than support each other.

[garyb]

I have absolutely no idea what you could be talking about looking innocently to the side

You did come to mind and from what I read of your log, stacking courses seems to be working great for you and has made me reconsider my usual advice. But if I remember well, you had already studied some French at school so weren't a complete beginner, and French is closer to English than Russian so an English speaker can probably take in more per day before hitting the wall.

Anyway I like Iguanamon's advice about combining complementary courses rather than similar ones. That's what I'm trying to do for my Greek: an audio course based on repetition plus a more visual and explicit resource.

[drmweaver2]

First, let me thank all who've responded here. Lots of food for thought, some theoretical and others based on experience.

I delayed this response to give myself time to think about it all. FWIW, here's my take.

I am a false-beginner. A couple times over to be honest. I had 3 exposures to Russian prior to this summer - in the mid-70s, in the early-80s and in the mid-90s. The latter two periods were university courses but one was a 3x/week, 2-semester course while the other was a 3 semester, 5x/week course. I guess that works out to about 3.5 semesters after considering overlap and reinforcement in various areas.

Since then, I lost "my ear" - both figuratively and realistically - to age, injury and lack of exposure to the Russian language. I'm >60 now and I've developed tinnitus, so I have to "listen through" sometimes ridiculous levels of white noise, hissing and/or roaring in normal, everyday life. For language-learning. that means lots of exposure and audio input is required for me to distinguish, recall and reproduce certain sounds - lots. My prior professional career required me to be able to handle about 60-75 minutes of concentrating on audio before I need a break. I've mostly retained that ability as I aged though I tend to take more breaks lately.

Distinguishing Russian phonemes and especially minimal pairs has been my initial focus upon my return - well, that and trying to regain vocabulary.

Listening to both Glossika and Pimsleur is covering similar but not identical material in different (to me at least) manners of presentation and voices (the pacing, frequency of speech and vocal frequencies of the four speakers make different impressions on my ears). I hope(d) there might be some additional benefit as far as the pace of learning went. If that's not the case and it interferes with the pace of my learning, I guess I'll just deal with it by adjusting my expectations and plans.

I've cut myself off from as much non-Russian audio input as possible (some English is unavoidable, some is necessary). But most of the Russian input throughout the day is not yet "comprehensible input". I just don't have the vocabulary or grammar. I do notice more frequent bits and pieces of Russian breaking through the comprehension barrier in the last week as it's mostly-all-Russian-all-the-time throughout my house, car and yard work.

Again, thanks for all your thoughts, responses and advice. It's been educational.

[Skynet]

I have absolutely no idea what you could be talking about looking innocently to the side

You did come to mind and from what I read of your log, stacking courses seems to be working great for you and has made me reconsider my usual advice. But if I remember well, you had already studied some French at school so weren't a complete beginner, and French is closer to English than Russian so an English speaker can probably take in more per day before hitting the wall.

Yes, I studied French for 4 years (IGCSE) and let it atrophy for 11 years after that. I really cannot imagine bashing my head with a language with a new script for 11 hours a day. That would actually send me spiraling into a severe depression. I am stacking German, and all I can see is that I am seeing the obvious language patterns, even though it suffers from morphological agglutination (just like Dutch and Persian, which are both on my to-do list)!

[drmweaver2]

As I've said in my signature link, the multi-track approach, I have learned using a couple of courses simultaneously. It worked well for me. I usually devoted an hour to an hour and a half in the mornings to a text (with audio) based course (DLI Basic) plus puzzling out some comprehensible native material. Later in the day, I'd do a Pimsleur lesson and maybe again before going to bed. That's about all I can handle. My brain needs time to rest, think, consolidate and revitalize. I don't think I could do all that in one three hour session and I don't think it would be as effective...(snip)...If you overload yourself the results are predictably bad. I always tell people that it doesn't matter what materials they use as long as they are consistent and persistent in what they do. (Caveat- no more than two complementary courses!) For an adult monolingual beginner, trying to learn their first second language- consistency and persistence are 80% of the task.

I somehow overlooked this response and feel that it deserves its own reply.
First, I've read a bunch of your posts and log(s). Obviously, you've had success and found what works for you. Parts of it will likely work for me, I think.

I do want to remind you (generic you), that I am only working with a single language, Russian, right now.

Also, I don't view myself as "an adult monolingual beginner" in Russian which is actually my 3rd excursion into non-native languages. I had Spanish(#1) in high school and college. I took German(#2) in college(both in the US and in Germany) and I lived in Germany for 5.5 years (probably reached B2 though I was never tested). Toss in a short stint with Japanese in Guam and Okinawa for a 4th language.

One thing that you and others have expressed "reasonable concerns" about relate to possible "information processing and/or brain overload". An absolutely understandable consideration - at least theoretically. Then again, immersion courses like DLI and FSI and even Middlebury encourage, if not require, 8+ hours per day of "coursework", homework and general exposure. Also, I have nothing but interest, time and little else to do for the foreseeable near-term. If I go two steps forward instead of 6 in X amount of time, fine. If I go 1 step back at times, like I thought happened earlier this week, well, I'll just "suck it up buttercup" (as we used to say in the service) and drive on (as they say now).

I don't expect to travel and use the Russian I learn...unfortunately, that's not in the $$ cards. But I can play - not at learning, but with the language. That's the goal. For instance, why do I want to read Lord of the Rings in Russian when I've read it in English numerous times? Simply because ... and for no other reason.

You do make an absolutely valid argument regarding persistence and consistency. Skynet's French self-challenge this summer illustrates the validity of that argument quite well. All I can say is I can try. I have been persistent for the past 30 days, though not quite as deliberate, organized and efficient as I think she he was. I read her his entire log, picked up a few ideas and am trying to incorporate them from this point forward - though I wish I had an eidetic memory like she does (decades ago, my ability to concentrate approached that, but today, not so much. Now I generally have to rely on guile, cunning and experience to outwit, outplay and outlast young whippersnappers ).

Thanks for your perspective. I enjoyed reading your post.

Edited to reflect that I misidentified Skynet as a "she"... Mea culpa!

[Skynet]

You do make an absolutely valid argument regarding persistence and consistency. Skynet's French self-challenge this summer illustrates the validity of that argument quite well. All I can say is I can try. I have been persistent for the past 30 days, though not quite as deliberate, organized and efficient as I think she was. I read her entire log, picked up a few ideas and am trying to incorporate them from this point forward - though I wish I had an eidetic memory like she does (decades ago, my ability to concentrate approached that, but today, not so much. Now I generally have to rely on guile, cunning and experience to outwit, outplay and outlast young whippersnappers ).

Thanks for your perspective. I enjoyed reading your post.

Thank-you very, very much for the compliments. It's ironic that you mention eidetic memory as it seems to be inexistent in adults. I may be just a subconsciously self-trained mnemonist (which would make sense since I also play chess and contract bridge and have an unusually strong OCD). I have been reading Marvin Minsky's The Society of Mind, if this interests you at all.

Oh, and for future reference, Skynet is a soon-to-be-27-year-old HE!