Would working with a tutor weekly be a good idea to learn a language from scratch?

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garyb
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Re: Would working with a tutor weekly be a good idea to learn a language from scratch?

Postby garyb » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:26 am

patrickwilken wrote:I don't think it necessarily is a bad thing to have a tutor from the beginning. It's essentially just having a language class of one. Wilhelm von Humboldt did it and ended up pretty good at languages. If you can afford a good one why not?


I'm hopefully not derailing this thread too much by making it about me rather than the OP, but I'm actually in a similar situation: I've just started learning Greek, I'm very much a beginner but I have Greek family and my dad has offered to give me lessons over Skype. So I basically have the option of tutoring (albeit not with a qualified teacher) for free! But I honestly don't even know how he could help me at this stage where I've not even got a basic knowledge, so I've decided to just self-study for now and leave his offer for later. I'm curious about what the advice would be for someone who does decide to use a tutor from the start, when money is no object, as it would be nice to take advantage of the opportunity I have.
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Re: Would working with a tutor weekly be a good idea to learn a language from scratch?

Postby Elenia » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:57 am

garyb wrote:I'm hopefully not derailing this thread too much by making it about me rather than the OP, but I'm actually in a similar situation: I've just started learning Greek, I'm very much a beginner but I have Greek family and my dad has offered to give me lessons over Skype. So I basically have the option of tutoring (albeit not with a qualified teacher) for free! But I honestly don't even know how he could help me at this stage where I've not even got a basic knowledge, so I've decided to just self-study for now and leave his offer for later. I'm curious about what the advice would be for someone who does decide to use a tutor from the start, when money is no object, as it would be nice to take advantage of the opportunity I have.


I've only ever had one tutoring session of half an hour, so I'm hardly qualified to talk about this. But I won't let that stop me!

I think a good method would be to find someone who is willing to work with you through a textbook, and with some shorter, easier native materials on the side. In the case of the OP, a tutor would be great for explaining the unclear and harder bits of assimil, or whatever other method the OP uses. You can practice dialogues from textbooks, and also practice variations on the dialogues. (For example, your textbook might teach you how to ask for the menu in a restaurant, but not how to explain that you don't eat shrimps and are allergic to cashew nuts). A tutor can likely help in making that content more relevant to you.

Of course, the difficulty is in finding a good tutor who is flexible with their offering and willing to tailor their teaching to the tutee. I think that for you, Gary, your dad would likely be more helpful in making learner content relevant to you than explaining tricky grammatical concepts - although he may turn out to be great at both.

Anyway, as said I have basically no experience with tutors, so take all of that with a very healthy sprinkling of salt.
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Re: Would working with a tutor weekly be a good idea to learn a language from scratch?

Postby StringerBell » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:20 pm

garyb wrote:I'm curious about what the advice would be for someone who does decide to use a tutor from the start, when money is no object, as it would be nice to take advantage of the opportunity I have.


This brought something to mind. I saw a video with Steve Kaufman where he said that even though he usually waits until he develops a really good passive vocabulary before talking, he wanted to try something new and talk earlier. Since his vocabulary was extremely limited (he was reading/listening to beginning graded reader-type stories), he made each session about one of the simple stories he'd just completed. I think he sent a copy of it to the tutor at the beginning of the session so they'd know what he was trying to say. The point was just to practice saying what he was currently learning.

I've never used any textbook/programs like Assimil, but from my understanding there are conversations/dialogues, right? So maybe the same thing could be done with that - type up a dialogue or two from a textbook, and at the beginning of the session send them to the tutor and then have the session be about discussing those dialogues.

(1) You could practice reading it out loud so they can give feedback on pronunciation, (2) you could try to summarize the dialogue from memory, (3) they could ask some simple comprehension questions about it, (4) you could try telling the same story from a different point of view (3rd person plural vs. first person singular) etc... this is just off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more you could do with it.

Alternatively, depending on how much of a "beginner" you are, you could try preparing some simple sentences ahead of the session; for example, if you just learned past tense, you could write a list of all the things you did or didn't do that day, and maybe practice asking the tutor if s/he did those same things, etc...I think I would have been able to do this kind of thing a few weeks after first starting Italian. You'd probably have to look up some vocabulary or verbs, but it would be a great way to learn them and to figure out what are the most useful words to learn at the moment.
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Re: Would working with a tutor weekly be a good idea to learn a language from scratch?

Postby zenmonkey » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:54 am

Personally, I use two tutors for difficult languages as a beginner. They are really great teachers, but tutors are terrible way to learn a language and a waste of time for me. Still, I'm going to continue to use them.

Wait?! What? Read on. I'll explain.

Xmmm wrote:I think you have analysis paralysis and are trying to over-optimize your learning experience, which is not going to work since you don't know what you need to do to learn a language (not having done it before).

People have recommended Pimsleur and Assimil to you. If you think Pimsleur is slow and boring, but Assimil is fast and confusing you could do Assimil and do the lessons that are too fast and confusing more than once. French and Spanish have billions of intro courses. You could spend your life weighing the pros and cons of each. Or you could just pick Pimsleur or Assimil (or even better, both), get started, and have something to show for it in six months.

I think it's a mistake to start with a tutor because if you have no experience at all, how do you even know what you need in a tutor?


I am going to go with what Xmmm is saying, to a large extent.

I have not seen in this thread background on your objectives, learning activity and weaknesses - so, in reality we can only give general advice on what we've done or used or liked. You are not us and we are not you.

The problem with a tutor or Pimsleur or Assimil is that while each can be a good tool your are just passively subjecting yourself to a learning style, content on objectives as designed by someone else - just like it's a terrible way to build a house you are going to live in by choosing a random plan off a catalogue. You may accidentally choose a great architect or tutor but you need to know what you want to build.

You want to reach B1 - that is a great start, but to do what? General travel, study, work? Live in country? Read literature in depth? We can make assumptions here and consider at the minimum that it a general all around B1 level you want to achieve ... but is a tutor really the best tool for that?

You want to work on pronunciation, listening, reading, vocabulary and production (so much on production!) What short and mid-term learning goals do want to have in those categories.

And where are you today? What are your weaknesses, what are your strengths? What do you enjoy in learning?

You then need to choose enjoyable activities that address those learning goals while focusing on your weaknesses and building from your strengths. Then from the cornucopia of possible activities, a weekly tutor being just one of them, you can build a plan and choose the resources that best fit.




So why are my tutors a waste of time yet my preferred method for my A1 languages?

Because I have weekly sessions and mostly focus my learning activity on that, I tend to not do much with these languages the rest of the time. The sessions are challenging, I learn a lot but I'm not really focused on active learning the rest of the week. These are a treat for me. I get to talk to someone knowledgeable about languages - we share an hour together, it's enjoyable. The quality of the material they present is excellent, but really, it's just an hour a week. I'm pretty passive about it - because I have no specific goals other than dabbling in the language and moving along. And thankfully, since I schedule the time, I do the time.

It's not that tutors are bad in general, they can be great. It's that I've (passively) chosen to let a once a week conversational activity drive my learning. But, for these languages, I'm mostly ok with that. It's like I'm not training for a marathon, heck, not even a good 5k. I'm just jogging to the corner bagel shop. In jeans.

You need to determine how you are going to couple your tutoring session with other activity. Is it going to be the only thing you are doing? Homework assignments (of what type? covering what goals?) With what material?

Finally, it also really depends on the language - for French, as rdearman noted, it can be a great tool to address pronunciation issues. But have you also looked into FSI? Wyner's pronunciation deck? YouTube videos?

French has a huge amount of good material out there, you really need to chose what activity you want to follow - personally, If I were learning it again with the objectives that I had of rapid and absolute mastery for living in country and understanding all literature, I'd start with cramming through Michel Thomas/Pimsleur/Assimil, add a very large dose of the grammaire progressive workbooks, do FSI and then add a tutor, a girlfriend and the AJATT method. A tutor would be a minor but extremely useful part of that craziness.
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Re: Would working with a tutor weekly be a good idea to learn a language from scratch?

Postby zenmonkey » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:47 pm

garyb wrote:
patrickwilken wrote:I don't think it necessarily is a bad thing to have a tutor from the beginning. It's essentially just having a language class of one. Wilhelm von Humboldt did it and ended up pretty good at languages. If you can afford a good one why not?


I'm hopefully not derailing this thread too much by making it about me rather than the OP, but I'm actually in a similar situation: I've just started learning Greek, I'm very much a beginner but I have Greek family and my dad has offered to give me lessons over Skype. So I basically have the option of tutoring (albeit not with a qualified teacher) for free! But I honestly don't even know how he could help me at this stage where I've not even got a basic knowledge, so I've decided to just self-study for now and leave his offer for later. I'm curious about what the advice would be for someone who does decide to use a tutor from the start, when money is no object, as it would be nice to take advantage of the opportunity I have.


If I could get a once a week session with my father on a language, I'd jump at that, just for the time together. YMMV.
Since he's not a teacher, I'd probably use something like FSI or Greek Today as our support material. Same thing I posted before - identify what you want to work on in advance so that the lessons are useful. Add liberal doses of things you like.
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