Learning 2 languages

[Inst]

Once again, for a first language, a monoglot is best off picking something easy. Hence Esperanto, French, Spanish, etc.

Second, a monoglot is better off getting to a high level of proficiency (B2, C1) in a target language before learning a second language; the language learning process is something you are acquiring at the same time, and is something that makes learning all subsequent languages easier.

Third, French and Spanish are either dialects of Latin or both Romance languages. You're not supposed to learn highly related languages at the same time because this will end up triggering confusion.

Finish Spanish first, finish French first, but don't do both.

[golyplot]

I can confirm that I sometimes experienced confusion between French and Spanish, and that's despite studying them one at a time. Same goes with Dutch and German.

Of course, there's also the opposite but related phenomenon. Sometimes when I try to remember say, a German word, I doubt myself and wonder "I know that word is Dutch, so are they actually the same or am I getting the languages mixed up again" and then I will think I can't remember it even if I was actually right.

[jeff_lindqvist]

You're not supposed to learn highly related languages at the same time because this will end up triggering confusion.

Not supposed to? According to whom?

Finish Spanish first, finish French first, but don't do both.

Do people ever finish languages?

Like Tarvos, Reineke and others, I studied several languages at the same time in school. Some for one year, some for many years (based on the syllabus).

By the way, my first foreign language was English.

[Cèid Donn]

Do people ever finish languages?

I'll let you know when I do!

Sometimes when I write in Scottish Gaelic, I spell things with the Irish spelling or vice versa--a-nis/anois, leam/liom, eadar/idir and so on. And sometime when I write in French, I spell things as they would be in Spanish, or vice versa--une/una, pour/por, est/es and so on. Heck, sometimes I slip Scottish Gaelic words into French sentences and other crazy stuff, si tu me leantainn, and I've been known to unconsciously switch from Spanish to Gaelic in middle of a causal conversation with grocery store clerks. You should see their faces when I do, especially when mindlessly uttering "O, gabh mo leisgeul!" next doesn't really help.

And you know what? It's not the end of the world. These sorts of mix-ups are not indicative of some catastrophic confusion in my head that prevents me from progressing in any of these languages. This is just how the human brain works. Learning a language isn't simply about learning data--it's about learning skills that allow you to use that language, and skill acquirement and data memorization are two very different things. You need to practice skills, and inevitably that means you're going to make mistakes. That's how humans learn skills.

And if you are going to learn two closely related languages, or any two languages (even when one is your native language) at some point you are going to have to work on the skill of not mixing them up. The way our human memory works, it's not like a computer when you can store data and then retrieve it in a perfectly smooth process. We form memories via making connections to other memories, and not all those connections are conscious, rational, linear or neatly compartmentalized. That means, you are going to be mixing them up until you develop the skill of not mixing them (which requires you making even more memories!). Practice make perfect, right? So I really loath the idea of "Oh no, you'll get them confused" when approaching this, as if it's some terrible learner misstep. Yes, you will. It's part of the process of learning the skill of using two languages. And you will learn with practice to do it less and less. Again, not the end of the world.

The bigger issue is if for that individual learner, their circumstances, their goals and their past language experience, is this the best use of their time? Would it be better for them to learn one language to B2+ level or is it OK if they progress more slowly with learning two (or more) concurrently? Do they already understand the basics of how languages work, like grammar, syntax and phonology, or will they need to devote some of their language learning time to getting a handle all those? Can they deal with it when they do confuse things? Are they going to get frustrated and mad at themselves pointlessly, or are they just going to log on to the forum late at night and quietly change "anois" to "a-nis" in the Scottish Gaelic bit they wrote earlier that day without worrying that everyone in the world is going to think they're hopeless?

People get a little too fixated on whether they are doing things "the right way" with learning languages. Frankly, it's more about people being anxious about screwing up than anything else, and with learning languages, screwing up is just part of the process, so just get used to it. There are different ways to approach an endeavor as complex and lengthy as learning a new language, as one would rationally expect, and it's really a matter of what works best for you and your goals. Someone who's learning a language for a class, a job or a test has very different goals to meet than someone like myself who's studying for the joy and personal enrichment of learning, and someone who's studying a language for some kind of validation, challenge or attempt to intellectually prove themselves has very different motivation than someone who's studying a language because they are passionate about that language.

Anyhow, to Kevin, go with the approach that appeals to you and you think will get you heading towards your goals. Unless you are doing this for a grade or a job--in which case it would be best to just focus on the language you need for that grade or job--you are more or less free to choose. The important thing is you enjoy this and don't frustrate yourself by feeling you're denying yourself by conforming to the expectations or rules of people on the internet who you don't know. As you progress, ask yourself if it seems to be working for you. If yes, keep going. If no. adjust. It's OK if you don't start out smoothly, but if you end up make yourself miserable because you think you have to do it a certain way, then you will likely not get very far. Don't be afraid to make mistakes and don't be afraid to try something a certain way, because you can always change your approach and do it differently if it doesn't work. Live, learn, and have fun.

[jeff_lindqvist]

(...)and I've been known to unconsciously switch from Spanish to Gaelic in middle of a causal conversation with grocery store clerks.

Hey, that has almost happened to me too. Once upon a time in the Gaeltacht, I had to use Spanish as a bridge language while chatting with a Galician couple about Irish (we were all taking classes at the time, but at different levels). I've learned Irish through English, and Spanish through Swedish, so my brain had to work! One of the more demanding language exchanges that week...

[Inst]

You're not supposed to learn highly related languages at the same time because this will end up triggering confusion.

Not supposed to? According to whom?

Finish Spanish first, finish French first, but don't do both.

Do people ever finish languages?

Like Tarvos, Reineke and others, I studied several languages at the same time in school. Some for one year, some for many years (based on the syllabus).

By the way, my first foreign language was English.

It's something I've read online that seems reasonable. If you learn related languages at the same time, you'll end up mixing up words between them because the words are so similar.

As for finishing a language, yes, it's possible to finish a language, which is defined as having reached an acceptable level of competency and no longer actively learning a language. For instance, I no longer study my primary language, although I should, because I have around a 60th percentile vocabulary for my age. I could go up to 80th percentile or so, but I have diminishing returns.

I'd define "finishing" a language as reaching 25-50% of native speaker passive vocabulary size. In English, it would be passing the TOEFL lexicon, and if you are planning to use English heavily, having a vocabulary comparable to an undergraduate (20k) but not an educated native speaker (40k). Of course, whether you have the ability to converse and read/write in the language is also crucial.