Training your ear/mouth for a specific dialect

Ask specific questions about your target languages. Beginner questions welcome!
User avatar
Serpent
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3657
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:54 am
Location: Moskova
Languages: heritage
Russian (native); Belarusian, Polish

fluent or close: Finnish (certified C1), English; Portuguese, Spanish, German, Italian
learning: Croatian+, Ukrainian; Romanian, Galician; Danish, Swedish; Estonian
exploring: Latin, Karelian, Catalan, Dutch, Czech, Latvian
x 5181
Contact:

Re: Training your ear/mouth for a specific dialect

Postby Serpent » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:50 pm

NoManches wrote:This is a great point and I believe I asked a question related to this before (it may have been its own thread or just a question I had related to listening comprehension). *Bonus points to anyone who can find the post*
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =17&t=2501
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 890#p51890

And well, I did say that learning to understand a specific (very emotional) commentator has improved my comprehension of Italian. Obviously this doesn't mean my understanding has magically become perfect.
2 x
LyricsTraining now has Finnish and Polish :)
Corrections welcome

NoManches
Blue Belt
Posts: 654
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:21 pm
Location: Estados Unidos (near the Mexican border)
Languages: English - (N)
Spanish - B2 +
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7942
x 1459

Re: Training your ear/mouth for a specific dialect

Postby NoManches » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:07 pm

Serpent wrote:
NoManches wrote:This is a great point and I believe I asked a question related to this before (it may have been its own thread or just a question I had related to listening comprehension). *Bonus points to anyone who can find the post*
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =17&t=2501
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 890#p51890

And well, I did say that learning to understand a specific (very emotional) commentator has improved my comprehension of Italian. Obviously this doesn't mean my understanding has magically become perfect.



You get EXTRA bonus points because you dug up two very useful threads that apply to what the OP was asking about. Thanks!

I'll have to give them a review myself
1 x
DOUBLE Super Challenge
Spanish Movies
: 10795 / 18000

Spanish Books
: 4415 / 10000

User avatar
jeff_lindqvist
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3165
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:52 pm
Languages: sv, en
de, es
ga, eo
---
fi, yue, ro, tp, cy, kw, pt, sk
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2773
x 10589

Re: Training your ear/mouth for a specific dialect

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:03 pm

And I thought you were thinking of these two threads (although they weren't started by you):
Do you learn only the standard dialect? (Dec 2017)
Expanding out and learning other varieties of the same language (May 2018)
1 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

Llorg Blog - Wiki - Discord

User avatar
Serpent
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3657
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:54 am
Location: Moskova
Languages: heritage
Russian (native); Belarusian, Polish

fluent or close: Finnish (certified C1), English; Portuguese, Spanish, German, Italian
learning: Croatian+, Ukrainian; Romanian, Galician; Danish, Swedish; Estonian
exploring: Latin, Karelian, Catalan, Dutch, Czech, Latvian
x 5181
Contact:

Re: Training your ear/mouth for a specific dialect

Postby Serpent » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:51 pm

As for the main question, it's far more important to train your ear to understand multiple dialects. You should definitely begin seeking them out at B1 or so. You can do it earlier too, but for those who are new to language learning this may be confusing initially.

When it comes to a specific language/dialect it depends on its sociolinguistic situation, too. And on your plans/goals. Obviously it's a good idea to get used to the local dialect/variant before visiting a specific area.

Also, if there are clear choices to make, you should take them seriously but not worry about what you pick up while travelling. Feel free to change your mind early on, but once you've got far enough avoid switching without a major reason (moving, being in a relationship with a native). Specifically don't change your mind just because you've encountered difficulties. You'll encounter them in any variant of the language.
2 x
LyricsTraining now has Finnish and Polish :)
Corrections welcome

StringerBell
Brown Belt
Posts: 1035
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:30 am
Languages: English (n)
Italian
x 3289

Re: Training your ear/mouth for a specific dialect

Postby StringerBell » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:11 pm

I'm an American who's married to a northern Italian, so my primary reason for learning Italian is to be able to communicate with his friends+family (who don't speak English).

For those who don't know, each region (and each city within each region) in Italy has it's own "dialetto" which is a completely separate language and can't be understand by people from other regions. For example, if my husband hears a dialetto from a city that's 2 hours away, they might as well be speaking Greek as far as he's concerned.

In addition to Italian, my husband speaks Bresciano (his area's dialetto). It's very common for people to include dialetto words when they're speaking Italian amongst themselves, or an Italian-Bresciano version of "Spanglish". In addition, there are vocabulary words, expressions, verbs, and slang that are Italian but are only used in certain regions.

Knowing all this, at first learning Italian felt like an impossible task. I decided to try to keep things simple for myself and keep my goal in sight; I wanted to communicate with northerners (though he does have one very close friend from down south, which complicates things a bit :) So I started watching youtube videos of only northern Italians. At this early stage, I found standard Italian to be difficult to understand because I was only used to the way Brescians spoke. As an aside, Bresciano is considered to be the most vulgar and low-brow of all the dialetti, which is something that I happen to love!

Eventually, as my comprehension improved, I started to watch more "standard Italian" things like TV shows. After a few months of that, I started doing conversation exchanges with two southerners; I was terrified at first that I wouldn't understand them at all (southerners tend to overuse the remote past verb tense while in northern Italy it is almost never used, for example.) However, I realized that my fears were unfounded because I have no trouble understanding either person, and speaking to these southerners has given me the confidence that I can talk to anyone in the country, not just northerners.

Since in my situation I have a reason to focus on one particular regional variation of Italian, I don't try to remember or use other regions' specific vocab, but if I come across an Italian word used in Brescia (for example: pota) I do try to use it when talking with my husband's family though I never use them with Italians from other regions.

My personal take is that it is unnatural to use the accents, slang, vocab, expressions from all regions. I'm an American, so I speak American English. I watch enough British TV shows that I'm very familiar with their slang and weird ways of saying certain things, but if I were talking to a Brit, I wouldn't suddenly start trying to speak as if I were British, so it doesn't make sense to do this in a foreign language, either.

I think it makes sense to pick one that you have some kind of connection with and try to emulated that accent, while still being able to understand that which comes from other regions/countries that speak that language.
4 x
Season 4 Lucifer Italian transcripts I created: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wik ... ranscripts

Xmmm
Blue Belt
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:19 am
Languages: ru it tr
x 2221

Re: Training your ear/mouth for a specific dialect

Postby Xmmm » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:22 pm

I'm a native speaker of Valspeak. During its peak fame, people would come to California to visit and try to use the Valspeak that they learned on TV. But the visitors never got it right. For one thing, these poseurs would have an extremely limited vocabulary -- like maybe 3 words. Even more importantly, they never got the vowels right. The thing that made Valspeak interesting to linguists is that all these Scandinavian vowels were popping up for no reason, but the poseurs would just say "dood" and "toobyooler", which was just wrong. Maybe somebody can provide the IPA for the correct pronunciation, but dude was pronounced more like 'did' and tubular needed at least two umlauts if not more. You can actually see it in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure (? or Bogus Journey, I forget) when the fathers of Bill and Ted are possessed by the spirits of Bill and Ted. One father is spot-on perfect and must have been the original valley dude, the other tries really hard but just can't pull it off ...

And it was flat out cultural appropriation, worst of all. People had revealed our linguistic secrets to the world without our permission, and now our native speech was being corrupted (and of course the surfers said that we had stolen and corrupted their speech, which is probably true).

So, for me I want to learn idealized Italian, Russian as spoken in Moscow, Turkish as spoken in Istanbul (I guess, assuming that is the most conventional accent). And I want to soften my foreign accent so it's not annoying, but leave a little of it as a signal that I'm not trying to con anybody or pretend to be something I'm not.
3 x

Ещё раз сунешь голову туда — окажешься внутри. Поняла, Фемида? -- аигел

kulaputra
Orange Belt
Posts: 221
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:04 am
Languages: English (N), Kannada (semi-native, illiterate), Spanish (~C1), Hindi (A2 speech, B1 comprehension), French (A1 speech, A2 listening, >=B1 reading), Mandarin Chinese (~A1)
x 331

Re: Training your ear/mouth for a specific dialect

Postby kulaputra » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:39 pm

Xmmm wrote:So, for me I want to learn idealized Italian, Russian as spoken in Moscow, Turkish as spoken in Istanbul (I guess, assuming that is the most conventional accent). And I want to soften my foreign accent so it's not annoying, but leave a little of it as a signal that I'm not trying to con anybody or pretend to be something I'm not.


I was following you until this. Learning a language is learning to be someone else. I don't see why I should purposely conserve a foreign accent, and I don't see that as being a poseur. After all- the cultural appropriators you referred to earlier w/r/t Valspeak- if they didn't have an accent, then they wouldn't have been poseurs, right?

Also, if you wanna record your speech (speaking Valspeak, of course) I could possibly transcribe it into IPA. I'd like to, actually, if it's not too much trouble for you.
1 x
Iha śāriputra: rūpaṃ śūnyatā śūnyataiva rūpaṃ; rūpān na pṛthak śūnyatā śunyatāyā na pṛthag rūpaṃ; yad rūpaṃ sā śūnyatā; ya śūnyatā tad rūpaṃ.

--Heart Sutra

Please correct any of my non-native languages, if needed!

vonPeterhof
Blue Belt
Posts: 885
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:55 am
Languages: Russian (N), English (C2), Japanese (~C1), German (~B2), Kazakh (~B1), Norwegian (~A2)
Studying: Kazakh, Mandarin, Coptic
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1237
x 2853
Contact:

Re: Training your ear/mouth for a specific dialect

Postby vonPeterhof » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:28 am

Xmmm wrote:So, for me I want to learn idealized Italian, Russian as spoken in Moscow, Turkish as spoken in Istanbul (I guess, assuming that is the most conventional accent).

I think it should be noted that Moscow has its own accent that isn't quite standard. The biggest giveaways are a greater degree of vowel reduction as well as lengthening of the unstressed /a/ before stressed vowels (this is often parodied by spelling Москва as Маасква, or понаехали as пнааехали). In the Soviet days even though the capital was moved to Moscow, people who pronounced their vowels the St. Pete/Leningrad way were apparently favoured for national radio and television and you could practically never hear Moscow accents in the media, and to some extent that is still the situation, aside from certain parodies where the Moscow accent is mixed in with "metrosexual" affectations. For a non-parody version, I think the Navalny brothers have a pretty noticeable Moscow drawl.
4 x

User avatar
tarvos
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2889
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:13 am
Location: The Lowlands
Languages: Native: NL, EN
Professional: ES, RU
Speak well: DE, FR, RO, EO, SV
Speak reasonably: IT, ZH, PT, NO, EL, CZ
Need improvement: PO, IS, HE, JP, KO, HU, FI
Passive: AF, DK, LAT
Dabbled in: BRT, ZH (SH), BG, EUS, ZH (CAN), and a whole lot more.
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=1&TPN=1
x 6094
Contact:

Re: Training your ear/mouth for a specific dialect

Postby tarvos » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:28 pm

Wow. On my gaydar, that parody marks high. That's brilliant.
0 x
I hope your world is kind.

Is a girl.

Xmmm
Blue Belt
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:19 am
Languages: ru it tr
x 2221

Re: Training your ear/mouth for a specific dialect

Postby Xmmm » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:19 am

vonPeterhof wrote:
Xmmm wrote:So, for me I want to learn idealized Italian, Russian as spoken in Moscow, Turkish as spoken in Istanbul (I guess, assuming that is the most conventional accent).

I think it should be noted that Moscow has its own accent that isn't quite standard. The biggest giveaways are a greater degree of vowel reduction as well as lengthening of the unstressed /a/ before stressed vowels (this is often parodied by spelling Москва as Маасква, or понаехали as пнааехали). In the Soviet days even though the capital was moved to Moscow, people who pronounced their vowels the St. Pete/Leningrad way were apparently favoured for national radio and television and you could practically never hear Moscow accents in the media, and to some extent that is still the situation, aside from certain parodies where the Moscow accent is mixed in with "metrosexual" affectations. For a non-parody version, I think the Navalny brothers have a pretty noticeable Moscow drawl.


Yeah, I probably erred in saying this. I, living thousands of miles away, meant to say "the accent which is found generally acceptable for newscasters and which I hear most of the time." I think I listen to Echo of Moscow and incautiously think "well, this is how they talk in Moscow" -- and there's no reason for that to actually be true.

So, I take your point.
0 x

Ещё раз сунешь голову туда — окажешься внутри. Поняла, Фемида? -- аигел


Return to “Practical Questions and Advice”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests