Training your ear/mouth for a specific dialect

[StringerBell]

I want to learn idealized Italian

What is "idealized Italian"? I've never heard this before. Do you mean a neutral standardized version?

[Xmmm]

I want to learn idealized Italian

What is "idealized Italian"? I've never heard this before. Do you mean a neutral standardized version?

Looks like the official name is "Standard Italian" and it's the neutral standard that people use for TV, official documents, cross-regional communication etc. But apparently even in Tuscany, they don't use Standard Italian for communication among friends, neighbors, family etc.

https://www.quora.com/What-part-of-Ital ... rd-Italian

I thought I saw it written somewhere officially as "Idealized Standard Italian" and even abbreviated ISI but now that I google for it I can only find "idealized Standard Italian" so I'm probably mis-remembering.

Edit:

This type of Italian, which has been taught in schools and is represented in traditional grammar texts, may be referred to as Idealized standard Italian or ISI.

https://ielanguages.com/italianlesson01.html

[garyb]

Looks like the official name is "Standard Italian" and it's the neutral standard that people use for TV, official documents, cross-regional communication etc. But apparently even in Tuscany, they don't use Standard Italian for communication among friends, neighbors, family etc.

Apologies if I'm stating the obvious, but it's worth being aware that while modern Italian is based on the Tuscan language of a few hundred years ago, the way the Tuscans speak now is no more "standard" than other regional accents. It has quite a particular intonation, some non-standard pronunciation features (hard C is often aspirated and S is often unvoiced where it would be voiced in standard pronunciation, so "casa" can sound like /hasa/ rather than /caza/), and its share of slang, and in more colloquial speech there's sometimes verb truncation similar to Romanesco (fare => fà etc.) although it's less common. Reference: listening to Tuscan flatmate and friends

I've not heard the term "Idealised Italian" before but it makes sense. I have encountered people who speak something close to standard Italian, and in some cases it's sadly because they've been ashamed of their local accent (often Southern) and felt prejudiced for it so have made an effort to eliminate it.

[StringerBell]

In the study of your L2s, how do you guys approach various dialects of a language? In particular:

1. Is it better to listen to many hours of a single dialect over weeks/months before switching to another? Or is it better to listen to them concurrently?
2. Do you focus on only being able to produce one dialect while being able to understand others, or do you try to produce multiple dialects separately (i.e. be able to fluidly code switch), or do you just let all the dialects mix?

Two other thoughts came to mind after I replied to this.

1) In an article on the Mezzofanti Guild website (which I love) where Donovan discussed what he would have done differently when he first started learning Arabic had he known then what he knows now. He said that rather than jumping between various Arabic dialects, he should have picked one and stuck with it the whole time, then if he felt the need he could have branched out to focus on another one after reaching a decent level of proficiency. It is available both as a video on youtube and as an article on his website. Hopefully it's cool for me to link the article here (we're allowed to link other websites/youtube videos here, right?) https://www.mezzoguild.com/how-to-start ... ng-arabic/

2) As I mentioned before, my husband is Italian, and while he knows some vocabulary that is specific to other regions, he only knows a little, and he NEVER uses it himself; he knows the few words that his friends from those regions tend to use. In general, even if he's speaking to someone from another region who uses different verb tenses, words, or slang, he can figure out from the context what they're saying and he doesn't concern himself with trying to learn and use their region-specific words.

So, I think it's probably counterproductive to focus on all sorts of variations of the language (at least in the earlier stages) and it's better to stick primarily to one region's version. In general, I think most people want to sound like a "native speaker" and by using every region's mishmash of region-specific vocab, I think the result would be pretty weird and messy. Just my opinion.

[kulaputra]

In the study of your L2s, how do you guys approach various dialects of a language? In particular:

1. Is it better to listen to many hours of a single dialect over weeks/months before switching to another? Or is it better to listen to them concurrently?
2. Do you focus on only being able to produce one dialect while being able to understand others, or do you try to produce multiple dialects separately (i.e. be able to fluidly code switch), or do you just let all the dialects mix?

Two other thoughts came to mind after I replied to this.

1) In an article on the Mezzofanti Guild website (which I love) where Donovan discussed what he would have done differently when he first started learning Arabic had he known then what he knows now. He said that rather than jumping between various Arabic dialects, he should have picked one and stuck with it the whole time, then if he felt the need he could have branched out to focus on another one after reaching a decent level of proficiency. It is available both as a video on youtube and as an article on his website. Hopefully it's cool for me to link the article here (we're allowed to link other websites/youtube videos here, right?) https://www.mezzoguild.com/how-to-start ... ng-arabic/

An interesting answer although Arabic "dialects," aren't. Jumping between Arabic dialects is like jumping between Romance languages which is similarly not advisable.

So, I think it's probably counterproductive to focus on all sorts of variations of the language (at least in the earlier stages) and it's better to stick primarily to one region's version. In general, I think most people want to sound like a "native speaker" and by using every region's mishmash of region-specific vocab, I think the result would be pretty weird and messy. Just my opinion.

True, but there's theory and then there's practice. In theory I agree but in practice I absolutely do mix Spanish and Mexican slang, as much as I try not to. I wonder whether this is pretty much inevitable for L2 learners not living inside a TL environment within a single region.

[StringerBell]

True, but there's theory and then there's practice. In theory I agree but in practice I absolutely do mix Spanish and Mexican slang, as much as I try not to. I wonder whether this is pretty much inevitable for L2 learners not living inside a TL environment within a single region.

I see this as a kind of code-switching. We all have different versions of our L1 that we use depending on whom we're talking to (our parents vs. our friends). Since every language has "different versions" for lack of a better description, I think it's important to learn when to speak in certain ways. For example, Italian and Polish (like many languages) have a formal version that's used when talking to strangers or as a sign of respect (with elders, certain professionals). I'm not in a place where I'm comfortable attempting to use the formal style of speaking, but I know it exists, I understand when it's expected to be used, and I know that at some point in the near future I should start practicing how to use it when appropriate.

As a beginner I don't think it makes sense to worry about code-switching, but later on I think it becomes much more important. I personally would focus a little on trying to get a handle on when it makes sense to use a specific word/expression and when it doesn't, even if it seems a bit difficult. By not focusing on a specific region's Spanish this becomes a problem that someone who starts out, for example, only listening to Mexican Spanish wouldn't even have to worry about.

The point of learning a language is communication. If you're saying a bunch of stuff that your listener isn't familiar with because it comes from another country in my mind it's akin to me speaking Italian and occasionally dropping in Polish words (which I actually do once in a blue moon by accident). It's not the end of the world, it's a little funny for the listener, and ultimately something that doesn't help a person reach the goal of communication so it's not really desirable in my opinion. I wouldn't want to be known for speaking Italian with a bunch of Polish words thrown in, and I wouldn't want to speak to northern Italians with a bunch of unknown southern Italian slang thrown in.