CEFR Exams in North America? - is it useful?

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eido
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Re: CEFR Exams in North America? - is it useful?

Postby eido » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:36 pm

aokoye wrote:No, I know that further improving your Spanish, or any language really, is easier said than done.

Not disagreeing with you there. I was talking about "impetus" - I was saying it's [nothing's] not going to force me. It seems nothing can. I should have been clearer. And I've heard of the privilege thing, I guess I just made it harder on myself by trying to see which one you meant when it was obvious. I look forward to reading those abstracts if you ever link to them. No rush, no hurry.
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Re: CEFR Exams in North America? - is it useful?

Postby Dylan95 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:57 am

I agree, in the US very few people are familiar with the CEFR scale. If you simply write "Spanish C2," most people will not know what that means. If I were you I would substitute C2 with the level name, or at least add it on afterwards.

A1 - Breakthrough or beginner
A2 - Waystage or elementary
B1 - Threshold or intermediate
B2 - Vantage or upper intermediate
C1 - Effective operational proficiency or advanced
C2 - Mastery or proficiency

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Eu ... _Languages

There's also a conversion system between the ILR scale and CEFR. This might be better understood in the US. E.g. Professional Working Proficiency or Limited Working Proficiency are terms you will find often on Linkedin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILR_scale
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Re: CEFR Exams in North America? - is it useful?

Postby aokoye » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:13 am

eido wrote:
aokoye wrote:No, I know that further improving your Spanish, or any language really, is easier said than done.

Not disagreeing with you there. I was talking about "impetus" - I was saying it's [nothing's] not going to force me. It seems nothing can. I should have been clearer. And I've heard of the privilege thing, I guess I just made it harder on myself by trying to see which one you meant when it was obvious. I look forward to reading those abstracts if you ever link to them. No rush, no hurry.

At the end of the day my general thought is that I see no reason for you not try to become an Spanish teacher. There is so much more to being a good teacher than being a native speaker. That said - here are a handful of articles that I found this evening, most of them pertain to English but the issues exist for teachers of languages other than English as well. Some of them are just abstracts others are open-access (free).

He and Miller - English teacher preference: the case of China's non‐English‐major students
Creese, Blackledge, and Takhi - The Ideal ‘Native Speaker’ Teacher: Negotiating Authenticity and Legitimacy in the Language Classroom
Kang - Teacher Candidates' Perceptions of Nonnative‐English‐Speaking Teacher Educators in a TESOL Program: “Is There a Language Barrier Compensation?”
Ruecker and Ives - White Native English Speakers Needed: The Rhetorical Construction of Privilege in Online Teacher Recruitment Spaces

I wish I had more energy to try to find more articles that weren't TESOL/TEFL specific.
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Re: CEFR Exams in North America? - is it useful?

Postby Cainntear » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:53 am

I'm not in North America, but really there's no such thing as a CEFR exam -- there are simply exams that give you a mark in terms of the CEFR. The question really is: are employers likely to be impressed by you having a language exam run by a country where your target language is spoken, or are they more likely to go for someone who has a more "familiar" exam, run by a North American exam group?
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Re: CEFR Exams in North America? - is it useful?

Postby aokoye » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:40 pm

Cainntear wrote:The question really is: are employers likely to be impressed by you having a language exam run by a country where your target language is spoken, or are they more likely to go for someone who has a more "familiar" exam, run by a North American exam group?

That's not really the question in the US because there isn't a company similar to TELC that has exams for any language other than English. I realize you can take TELC exams in various countries but they are based in Germany and have exams for a number of languages. There are some high school/college exams, but I doubt most employers would care (and depending on the employer they wouldn't know what you were talking about). The tests are also aimed at assessing how much college credit you may be able to get/what classes you might be exempt from taking. There also isn't a series of levels that one can take. For those curious I'm thinking about the AP, SAT subject tests, and CLEP. Essentially, there is no "familiar" exam.

The closest you'd get would be the American Translators Association and their exams. That said, from what I can tell, most if not all exams aimed at translators are very different than general language exams. They also aren't graduated by level.
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Re: CEFR Exams in North America? - is it useful?

Postby galaxyrocker » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:54 pm

aokoye wrote:The tests are also aimed at assessing how much college credit you may be able to get/what classes you might be exempt from taking. There also isn't a series of levels that one can take. For those curious I'm thinking about the AP, SAT subject tests, and CLEP. Essentially, there is no "familiar" exam.


I think that's part of the problem; in America, it seems we often care about foreign languages insofar as they get us out of having to spend more money at university. People don't really care about it more than that, apart from saying they'd like to speak another one. For myself, I do include my CEFR exam on my resume. I have it listed as "Irish -- TEG B2 (Upper Intermediate)" so it shows that it is officially recognized should they wish to Google TEG, but also puts it in terms that they would understand.

If OP wants to continue working/living between the United States and Europe, I see absolutely no harm in taking them (or even just taking them for personal reasons; I fully intend to take the Irish C1 one day, as well as some Spanish ones eventually). It'll be recognized in Europe and, when applying for jobs in America, he can easily tack on the level with it, and it might be a good conversation point (I've had several interviews where it came up and I got to explain what the CEFR was, etc.), especially if it's a job that would require working with a lot of Polish people, or Italians, etc.
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Re: CEFR Exams in North America? - is it useful?

Postby drp9341 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:33 pm

Damn, this is sad. Are there alternatives?
Does anyone know of any alternative tests that are better recognized internationally????


eido wrote:
drp9341 wrote:Unfortunately, in my experience, most Americans who "learn a second language" start when they're 11, take it in college, then teach.

I mean, I started when I was fourteen, but...
Ah, this makes me rethink my idea of becoming a Spanish teacher. I don't want to look a fool.


Not at all man, go for it. Those same friends busting chops are the same one who write "hace" as "ase." They need someone to whip them into shape. There was one male Spanish teacher who could break chops harder than anyone, (I never had him,) and everyone respected him.

Dylan95 wrote:There's also a conversion system between the ILR scale and CEFR. This might be better understood in the US. E.g. Professional Working Proficiency or Limited Working Proficiency are terms you will find often on Linkedin.

Yeah, but the amount of Americans who over-estimate their proficiency in a foreign language is truly astounding. I recently took a Police exam for one of the highest paid districts in the country, and scored 28th out of ~12,000. I got called the second week of hiring because during the first week, 3 people above me who claimed they spoke French and Spanish, (the languages the district needs,) didn't actually speak French or Spanish. My French is B1 with a good accent, but I can get it to B2 in about a week or so - luckily, the guy who talked to me over the officer? / whoever was Haitian, and his French was very slow and clear, he thought I was a native French speaker. Like I said, my French is not good AT ALL. I was hesitant to even mark down that I spoke it. If anyone wants proof, feel free to Skype me in French and post the audio. I don't have any shame in my lame French 8-) .
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Re: CEFR Exams in North America? - is it useful?

Postby Dylan95 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:51 pm

drp9341 wrote:Damn, this is sad. Are there alternatives?
Does anyone know of any alternative tests that are better recognized internationally????


eido wrote:
drp9341 wrote:Unfortunately, in my experience, most Americans who "learn a second language" start when they're 11, take it in college, then teach.

I mean, I started when I was fourteen, but...
Ah, this makes me rethink my idea of becoming a Spanish teacher. I don't want to look a fool.


Not at all man, go for it. Those same friends busting chops are the same one who write "hace" as "ase." They need someone to whip them into shape. There was one male Spanish teacher who could break chops harder than anyone, (I never had him,) and everyone respected him.

Dylan95 wrote:There's also a conversion system between the ILR scale and CEFR. This might be better understood in the US. E.g. Professional Working Proficiency or Limited Working Proficiency are terms you will find often on Linkedin.

Yeah, but the amount of Americans who over-estimate their proficiency in a foreign language is truly astounding. I recently took a Police exam for one of the highest paid districts in the country, and scored 28th out of ~12,000. I got called the second week of hiring because during the first week, 3 people above me who claimed they spoke French and Spanish, (the languages the district needs,) didn't actually speak French or Spanish. My French is B1 with a good accent, but I can get it to B2 in about a week or so - luckily, the guy who talked to me over the officer? / whoever was Haitian, and his French was very slow and clear, he thought I was a native French speaker. Like I said, my French is not good AT ALL. I was hesitant to even mark down that I spoke it. If anyone wants proof, feel free to Skype me in French and post the audio. I don't have any shame in my lame French 8-) .


That's true, but I don't think it's that they necessarily overestimate their ability. I think they are aware that they are overselling their abilities, and are just hoping that no one will check them up on it.
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Re: CEFR Exams in North America? - is it useful?

Postby eido » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:54 pm

drp9341 wrote:Not at all man, go for it. Those same friends busting chops are the same one who write "hace" as "ase." They need someone to whip them into shape. There was one male Spanish teacher who could break chops harder than anyone, (I never had him,) and everyone respected him.

I hope I can get kids to respect me. I think I'll know the material well enough, but knowing how to get kids to listen is another thing.
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Re: CEFR Exams in North America? - is it useful?

Postby drp9341 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:23 pm

Dylan95 wrote:That's true, but I don't think it's that they necessarily overestimate their ability. I think they are aware that they are overselling their abilities, and are just hoping that no one will check them up on it.

I agree that is true for many or most cases, however I remember that when I was a teenager I thought my Italian was "amazing." until the one summer when I was 16 when I truly got a group of friends over there that I spent every day and night with, and realized that my Italian wasn't nearly as good as I had even dreamed it may have been. It's possible it was teenage arrogance, but when you live in the US, even in NYC, formal / official stuff is done in English, so you don't ever realize the holes in your language abilities. Unless maybe it's Spanish, and you are like me and do, (or try to do,) everything from self-checkout machines to customer-service calls in Spanish.

eido wrote:I hope I can get kids to respect me. I think I'll know the material well enough, but knowing how to get kids to listen is another thing.

I would urge you not to worry about things outside of your control. Ask teachers who work with tough students how to deal with it, and prepare for it. Think about your own experiences in high school. Quick non-language related aside: The teacher that got the least sh*t, (that I remember,) was actually a sweetheart, she just was completely emotionally unresponsive whether the behavior was good or bad; she was stoic as hell for the first like 3 months lol.
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