How to listen without translating in your TL

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Carmody
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How to listen without translating in your TL

Postby Carmody » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:05 pm

I am learning French and am doing massive amounts of native input, like movies.

I am told not to translate when listening.

Do people have suggestions?
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Re: How to listen without translating in your TL

Postby Uncle Roger » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:36 pm

Well, Carmody... I did try to help didn't I? :D

I know what you mean because I felt the switch recently. Going from trying to translate, maybe even not consciously, what you are listening and feeling like you are getting things with that sort of lag an interpreter would give you, to actually just knowing it, and your comprehension being there exactly as the input ends, not after.

I'm afraid I can't suggest more than practice, regularly, maybe a couple of times a day every day. I'd refrain from speeches, talks, podcasts. That one-way communication is ultimately a very specific one, it's often akin to spoken prose. Hardly a realistic representation of natives speaking to each other, in my opinion. Movies are good as they are mostly dialogues, but you have to re-listen immediately what you haven't understood, until it is clear, even the stuff that gets mumbled and rush, which is usually the high frequency small words (pronouns, articles etc)
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Re: How to listen without translating in your TL

Postby Carmody » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:06 pm

Many thanks for your wonderful assistnce.
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Re: How to listen without translating in your TL

Postby tastyonions » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:51 pm

Listen to things that that are too fast and dense to give you time to translate. Movies usually have long pauses. Maybe try to look for really talky ones.
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Re: How to listen without translating in your TL

Postby Mohave » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:59 pm

I'm going to suggest podcasts or TV series as opposed to movies. There are many epiosdes of these using similar vocabulary - so you will hear the same vocabulary over and over - and will get out of the "translate" mode. As an example Un Village Français. I started watching with subtitles and having sto stop periodically to look up vocabulary. By half way through, I was able to turn off subtitles and just watch and enjoy. Podcasts, particularly podcasts that include lots of US-based news works similarly for me.
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Re: How to listen without translating in your TL

Postby Cavesa » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:24 pm

I've given this a bit of thought and would like to add my two cents, mostly opposite to Uncle Roger though. In the end, I might be writing a long post about the same thing tinyonions got in one line :-)

My first reflex, when I was reading your post, was looking at your level in the profile. And before looking closer at your log, I was about to tell you you were not expected to listen without translating at this point. A2 is simply too low for that. So, my advice was about to be "accept it, study further, postpone extensive listening".

But having read your log, I am a bit confused. Is your level A2? Or is it old info? I've read your Dialang results were mostly B1ish. That changes the situation a bit, but not that much. I think listening without translating is really something developing around B2. Patience was the advice I was gonna give.

Then I read your impressive book list. Having read so much in two years, that should have helped you develop understanding without translating. And I paid some attention to the other activities you've listed (such as grammar learning, pen pals) and to the note about your use of the books:
1-I have focused on just 20th century French fiction writers and am always eager to learn of authors not on my list that people really have enjoyed reading.
2-I try to read each book extensively first and then intensively 2-3 times thereafter.
3-My favorite French/Belgium author is A. Nothomb. I don't believe there is anyone writing as she does in the English language. No one respects her, but I love her.


So, my brainstorming based on all that:

1.Podcasts and youtube videos for learners are not gonna help here, too easy and slow. Audiobooks, despite all their qualities, may be too slow for this too. Movies are rather hard at this point (I have wrote about the differences I see between movies and tv series many times, so much I feel I'd be annoying repeating it). Tv series are much more likely to help. Start with something easier. A good dubbing of something you know. Extensive listening only! Perhaps French subtitles on the beginning but get rid of them asap. You should notice some improvements after a season or so. One of the main tools to make your brain stop translating: fun. When you focus on the content, eager to find out what happens next, feeling with the characters, and immersed in the story, you have no time for translation.

2.Extensive reading is great and just the amount of books you've read is impressive. However, I think your list is "too intellectual" (please, don't get me wrong, I am struggling to find a fitting term now). Yes, it is mostly modern, the problem is not there. It is not just classics and high literature. But still, it is not "low enough". I know Nothomb or Pancol are probably in the same "language register category" like Levy or other popular literature, so not too formal. But still not too close to the colloquial language. From your list, the closest to that is that Harry Potter translation in my opinion.

I think you could profit a lot from books displaying lots of quite natural dialogue or with a lighter and more natural general style. I am not saying your books are wrong, not at all. But I think you could profit enormously from adding stuff like Erik L'Homme: Le Livre des étoiles. It is for older kids but not too boring. The script to Kaamelott (yes there are books). The translation of the Sookie Stackhouse novels by Charlaine Harris. More crime novels and thrillers, Vargas or Grangé are very good and helped me a lot at the intermediate stage.

I know these don't look like the Great Books everyone should read and write essays on. But books like this reflect the spoken language more closely in my opinion.

3.When it comes to your grammar learning and any other structured studying:
3a. continue with it. These two pillars, input and studying, support each other very well. I think it is a mistake (for most learners) to leave the coursebooks too early. Actually, a high quality intermediate coursebook could be a useful experiment.
3b. Switch to monolingual sources. You want to think in the language without translation, yet your studying sources are bilingual. Translation has its place in learning, I am definitely not a dogmatic "everything in L2 at all costs" person. But you've said your immediate goal is to understand the language directly and get rid of the inner translation habit. Yet,this is the list of the grammar sources you've recently listed in your log: French Verbs and Essentials of Grammar by Simone Oudot, Essential French Grammar by Seymour Resnick,Ultimate French, by Stillman and Gordon,French Grammar: A Complete Ref. Guide by Calvez. I think this is a problem. Make your studying sessions monolingual. At least a part of them.

TL.DR version: Tons of tv series, low genre books, monolingual coursebooks.
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Re: How to listen without translating in your TL

Postby Carmody » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:48 pm

Cavesa

Thank you very much for all the time and thought you gave to your answer; it is tremendously thoughtful and practical.

I have much to say in response but I want to think carefully about what you have written and then respond.

I am truly grateful to you.
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Re: How to listen without translating in your TL

Postby Carmody » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:26 pm

Cavesa

Thank you so much again for all your kind efforts on my behalf.

Re: my language level of A2 vs. B1.
The reason I have placed myself at A2 is that while I have taken all the Dialang tests and gotten B1, I have not yet taken their test for Structure or grammar. I am working hard on my grammar and very much want to take their test in another month or so. If they say B1 then I believe I will be allowed to post myself as being B1.

Also, I do weekly Skype conversations with a partner who is a language teacher at a high school in France. She is very, very good; I believe we make a good team. However my clumsiness with talking with her is so painful for me that I frankly consider myself A1, although she is kind and says I am better.
Note: your level on English is easily C2 ++, for which congratulations.

Re: reading
Your observations on my reading seem to be excellent. My reason for my choice of books is this. I really don’t like mystery, detective, sci-fi or violence in my books. Yes, I know everyone else does but they don’t grab my interest.
I believe Nothomb is brilliant although she gets no respect anywhere in France.

Viewing:
French news is always spoken at too rapid a speed so I never watch that.
I do watch French documentaries on history and nature that bore everyone else but I find them interesting.

Confession: I am currently on episode 15/50 of Rémi Sans Famille ( an 1878 French novel by Hector Malot.) I realize this anime is for children but that and Charlie et Lola are my two favorites.
I have also watched in French: Tokyo Fiancée(Nothomb) !, L'homme qui plantait des arbres(Giono), Le tour du monde en 80 jours and Voyage au Centre de la Terre(Jules Verne), Les enfants du paradis. I especially loved Les enfants du paradis; there is nothing like it anywhere in the English language.

I thought the tv show Un Village français was really interesting, but it had surprisingly little in the way of dialogue.

I continue to study 2-3 hrs French daily and so am making a serious effort at all this.

In summary, your suggestions of “Tons of tv series, low genre books, monolingual course books” sounds excellent and I will work towards that goal.
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Re: How to listen without translating in your TL

Postby Uncle Roger » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:02 am

I continue to study 2-3 hrs French daily and so am making a serious effort at all this.


I beg you to reconsider Anki because it genuinely pains me to hear about people spending 2-3 hours a day on a language and not being where they would like to be with it.
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Re: How to listen without translating in your TL

Postby smallwhite » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:29 am

How to improve oral comprehension and production

I would stop translating now, cold turkey, and continue to follow the advice you've been receiving up there and here.
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