(Sp.)Is the "La" in the 2nd clause an example of laísmo ? Various natives say La is correct but I would use "Le"

Ask specific questions about your target languages. Beginner questions welcome!
User avatar
Jaleel10
Blue Belt
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:44 am
Location: Springbok, South Africa
Languages: Afrikaans (N), English (N)
Spanish (Advanced-B2)
x 963
Contact:

(Sp.)Is the "La" in the 2nd clause an example of laísmo ? Various natives say La is correct but I would use "Le"

Postby Jaleel10 » Thu May 10, 2018 9:56 am

2018-05-09 (1).png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
0 x

Dragon27
Blue Belt
Posts: 616
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:40 am
Languages: Russian (N)
English - best foreign language
Polish, Spanish - passive advanced
Tatar, German, French, Greek - studying
x 1375

Re: (Sp.)Is the "La" in the 2nd clause an example of laísmo ? Various natives say La is correct but I would use "Le"

Postby Dragon27 » Thu May 10, 2018 10:28 am

I would personally perceive "la" as direct object of "hiciera" in this sentence. Literally "Maria told him not to make her waste her time".
1 x

User avatar
Jaleel10
Blue Belt
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:44 am
Location: Springbok, South Africa
Languages: Afrikaans (N), English (N)
Spanish (Advanced-B2)
x 963
Contact:

Re: (Sp.)Is the "La" in the 2nd clause an example of laísmo ? Various natives say La is correct but I would use "Le"

Postby Jaleel10 » Thu May 10, 2018 11:03 am

Dragon27 wrote:I would personally perceive "la" as direct object of "hiciera" in this sentence. Literally "Maria told him not to make her waste her time".


(speaking under correction) El tiempo is the direct object. La in this case is an indirect object , but as far I know only Le and Les can be indirect objects. My one friend said it could be a case of "laísmo" where certain regions is Spain use la as in indirect objects. I posed this question to my native speaking companions. Two said La is correct, one is from Chile and one is from Mexico. So that confused me even further lol
0 x

Dragon27
Blue Belt
Posts: 616
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:40 am
Languages: Russian (N)
English - best foreign language
Polish, Spanish - passive advanced
Tatar, German, French, Greek - studying
x 1375

Re: (Sp.)Is the "La" in the 2nd clause an example of laísmo ? Various natives say La is correct but I would use "Le"

Postby Dragon27 » Thu May 10, 2018 11:11 am

Jaleel10 wrote:(speaking under correction) El tiempo is the direct object.

Yes, but 'el tiempo' is the direct object of 'perder', while 'la' is the direct object of 'hiciera'. So I would say (if I weren't a non-native) that using 'le' in this case would be an example of 'leísmo' (or a different analysis of this construction, where the recipient of "time-wasting" is an indirect object). But since I'm not a native, I could only guess.
1 x

Andy E
Yellow Belt
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:41 am
Languages: *
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=8001
x 149

Re: (Sp.)Is the "La" in the 2nd clause an example of laísmo ? Various natives say La is correct but I would use "Le"

Postby Andy E » Thu May 10, 2018 12:02 pm

This is an interesting point since the DPD say the following on this:

Los verbos hacer y dejar, cuando tienen sentido causativo, esto es, cuando significan, respectivamente, ‘obligar’ y ‘permitir’, siguen la misma estructura que los verbos de influencia: «verbo causativo + complemento de persona + verbo subordinado». Tanto hacer como dejar tienden a construirse con complemento directo si el verbo subordinado es intransitivo: «Él la hizo bajar a su estudio y le mostró el cuadro» (Aguilera Caricia [Méx. 1983]); «Lo dejé hablar» (Azuela Tamaño [Méx. 1973]); y tienden a construirse con complemento indirecto cuando el segundo verbo es transitivo: «Alguien lo ayudó a incorporarse, lo estimuló y hasta le hizo tomar café» (JmnzEmán Tramas [Ven. 1991]); «El alcaide de la cárcel le dejaba tocar el banjo todas las mañanas» (Cela Cristo [Esp. 1988]).

Note the "tend".

If put that sentence into DeepL (I played around with the English to end up with a similar result) it offers:

Maria told him not to make her waste her time = María le dijo que no le hiciera perder el tiempo.

However "María le dijo que no la hiciera perder el tiempo." is offered as an alternative.

Edit: Sorry - should have put the DPD link in (note it's under leísmo 4b):

http://lema.rae.es/dpd/srv/search?id=DRC2Ny6YAD6yEoSWaX
3 x

User avatar
Jaleel10
Blue Belt
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:44 am
Location: Springbok, South Africa
Languages: Afrikaans (N), English (N)
Spanish (Advanced-B2)
x 963
Contact:

Re: (Sp.)Is the "La" in the 2nd clause an example of laísmo ? Various natives say La is correct but I would use "Le"

Postby Jaleel10 » Thu May 10, 2018 12:21 pm

Dragon27 wrote:Yes, but 'el tiempo' is the direct object of 'perder', while 'la' is the direct object of 'hiciera'. So I would say (if I weren't a non-native) that using 'le' in this case would be an example of 'leísmo' (or a different analysis of this construction, where the recipient of "time-wasting" is an indirect object). But since I'm not a native, I could only guess.


I would have never thought of a clause having two direct objects. Makes more sense if I think about it that way.

Andy E wrote:Los verbos hacer y dejar, cuando tienen [sentido causativo, esto es, cuando significan, respectivamente, ‘obligar’ y ‘permitir’, siguen la misma estructura que los verbos de influencia: «verbo causativo + complemento de persona + verbo subordinado». Tanto hacer como dejar tienden a construirse con complemento directo si el verbo subordinado es intransitivo: «Él la hizo bajar a su estudio y le mostró el cuadro» (Aguilera Caricia [Méx. 1983]); «Lo dejé hablar» (Azuela Tamaño [Méx. 1973]); y tienden a construirse con complemento indirecto cuando el segundo verbo es transitivo: «Alguien lo ayudó a incorporarse, lo estimuló y hasta le hizo tomar café» (JmnzEmán Tramas [Ven. 1991]); «El alcaide de la cárcel le dejaba tocar el banjo todas las mañanas» (Cela Cristo [Esp. 1988]).


This is news to me. Wow. I would have never come close to guessing this lol. First I need to find the definitions of those grammar terms but other than that it makes sense. Thanks again, Andy.
0 x

Cainntear
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3467
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:04 am
Location: Scotland
Languages: English(N)
Advanced: French,Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Intermediate: Italian, Catalan, Corsican
Basic: Welsh
Dabbling: Polish, Russian etc
x 8656
Contact:

Re: (Sp.)Is the "La" in the 2nd clause an example of laísmo ? Various natives say La is correct but I would use "Le"

Postby Cainntear » Tue May 15, 2018 8:36 am

«Alguien lo ayudó a incorporarse, lo estimuló y hasta le hizo tomar café» (JmnzEmán Tramas [Ven. 1991]);.
http://lema.rae.es/dpd/srv/search?id=DRC2Ny6YAD6yEoSWaX

Woaaaaah!
What is particularly interesting about this is that the first uses a reflexive/pronominal verb, and doesn't treat the reflexive pronoun as an object, which is what I've always been told, but I'd never seen how it worked in real life until now.

Edit: corrected unclosed italic tag.
0 x


Return to “Practical Questions and Advice”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests