Too late to move abroad?

[Cavesa]

Hi, welcome

Let me answer you from the point of view of a medicine student interested in a career in Germany, knowing about their system from people on Erasmus, and having my experience with Erasmus in France.

1. It is not rare for people to start medicine so late in Germany. The system gives the places in the programs based on the highschool grades. Some people don't get in the first time but wait a few years and then get in. So, you know probably more about conversion of your norwegian results to the german ones, but I know the age is not that much of a problem in general.

2.I find it weird, that you are not considering the option of just doing the degree in Norway and then moving to Germany, just like most people. The Czech Republic, Spain, Poland, and sometimes even France are good starting points for doctors working in Germany, so why should Norway be that different. As you are already considering staying in the army for five years, why not stay for six and do the medschool?

3.It is true that learning to sound like a native after a certain age is harder. The good news: you don't need to. You will get to C2 either before going or in the country, you will be functionally native like in either case. Your base, C1 after highschool, is impressive. I wouldn't worry about that. And even this level is enough. Actually, B2 is the general condition, with B1 being accepted as a temporary phase (the doctor gets the job but has an interpreter and works on their German intensively). Truth be told, I think the obsession with becoming absolutely native like is sometimes doing more harm than good, like in your case.

4.You can definitely get to C2 + medical language without being in the country. Should you study medicine in Norway, you wouldn't miss out on German. And if you would, it would be just your mistake, no need to blame the lack of immersion. You can be preparing for your career in another country before you leave, and you should. What does help: hundreds of hours of tv series (or movies), 10000+ pages of fiction, studying medicine also from the textbooks used in your target country (should studying both ways be too much, you could focus on just getting through the barest requirements at home, just to not have troubles), using any opportunity to spend some time in a hospital in the country. Erasmus, IFMSA (the international federation of medicine student), or individually arranged stays. Those hundreds of hours spend with the language can be spread over the six years of medicine hell in a manageable way and they can become a source of fun instead of a source of more trouble.

5.One thing: is postponing the medschool a good idea in general? As I wrote, it is not rare, it is not a huge problem per se. But you should take into account various things. Not only languages are harder to learn later. Also army and some kind of studies aside of your job may not suffice to keep you in the studying habits. It is also extremely unpleasant to be 27 and still just a medicine student (=a worthless piece of trash). I am not too far from the end, you would be starting at 27. And medicine really doesn't leave that much time and energy for a job, will you be able to survive without earning much? Can your parents help? Will you accept the help without feeling really guilty about it? Also, you might want to start a family before 30. This is even more pressing for a woman, trust me. I didn't think I would hate myself for this so much but I do. I am learning about the problems of old parents and their children in various subjects, all that while knowing I am likely to become such an overly old mother, I hate this problem. I am definitely not the only one thinking like this. It is less of a problem for guys but it is still one. There are various attitudes towards family life, you should just take a moment to think about yours. From what I've heard and read (my main sources are people with a part of family in Norway or who had been staying there for a few years, sorry if I am wrong or this sounds wrong), the norwegians are not too family oriented, so you might not mind. But perhaps you would and it is important to know before you take decisions with long term consequences. Also, will your ego be able to stand the fact you'll still be just a worthless student, while all your childhood friends and highschool classmates will already be far in their careers?

[Lawyer&Mom]

Start watching German dubbed ER. (The DVDs and streaming are available as “Emergency Room” on Amazon.de) Hundreds of hours of entertaining German, and you’ll pick up some German medical terminology without even trying.

[lusan]

On myself: 63 years old who speak Spanish, English, and according to my polish wife, Polish.

Man, life is brief, very brief; we are like clouds in a stormy sky. Maybe I might have left another 18 years of life to catch up learning French. I am not sure. I suspect you would be surely a very different person 5 years from now. So if I were you, I would move right away to Germany. I would not waste 1825 days -that is 6 % of your expected life - waiting to realize a dream. Many things occur in 5 years. We change, the world change. Figure out a way to study and do the whole thing in Germany. Be happy.

[aokoye]

I'll add to the chorus of people saying that you'll be fine. I actually clicked the title thinking it'd be more like, "I have xyz things going on in terms of work, family, etc and I don't know how I can logistically do this". That said, it doesn't seem like that's what's going on.

You already have a high level of proficiency in German and I suspect the real issue is that you might need to retake the tests depending on if the individual schools say that they want the results not to be older than a specific number of years. Also for what it's worth, I know someone who is now in his 60s who is from the US and went to med school in Sweden when he was in his mid 20s after having studied Swedish for a few years (while living in the country).

I also know someone from China who took a slightly different route. She did her BA in the US coming in with probably a high B2 and managed to get into med school in the US, despite doing her undergrad at a school that is really not known for preparing you for med school. It's a great school and her English improved immensely in part because of it, but it's a liberal arts school that has next to no focus on hard sciences.

[Uncle Roger]

I love this topic! For once, I can suggest Anki to take care not only of the language matters, but also of the medicine studies!



I get the feeling that the regimented army life is a perfect place to study a language little by little every day.

Lykke til!

[Cavesa]

While there is a lot of good sounding advice, but I think some of it doesn't count with the differences between the education systems.

I suspect you would be surely a very different person 5 years from now. So if I were you, I would move right away to Germany. I would not waste 1825 days -that is 6 % of your expected life - waiting to realize a dream. Many things occur in 5 years. We change, the world change. Figure out a way to study and do the whole thing in Germany.

He did. It requires further education, so that he fits the criteria. I don't know much about the norwegian schools, and we weren't told the details. But it is pretty obvious he has already explored the options of moving there and studying asap. Let's not forget the German application process is based on highschool grades, something you cannot change after leaving highschool. No simple way to study hard for entrance exams or a similar thing. So, just going to the country solves nothing. Even the natives are struggling a lot. This is one of the very good things about the czech system actually. Our highschool leaving exam is worthless for the universities, so they are making their own exams and always have been. I know a lot of successful medicine students (many of them now doctors), who failed to get into the faculty at first, spent a year preparing better, and then passed.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned at all: could the austrian or swiss medschools be an option? I know much less about those, but their entrance conditions may be different and the education likely to be of very good quality + in German. I have no worries about an austrian or swiss degree not being accepted and welcome in another German speaking country.

Sure, he can be a very different person in 5 years. Not unlikely: a person happy for not having gone into medicine. I mean it.
We adapt to the outside world. But we must accept it doesn't adapt to us. Just going in the country won't amaze anyone into giving us a place at university.

But staying in Norway just for the school could be a solution. And leaving for Germany as soon as he hold the degree, just like many other european doctors.

You already have a high level of proficiency in German and I suspect the real issue is that you might need to retake the tests depending on if the individual schools say that they want the results not to be older than a specific number of years. Also for what it's worth, I know someone who is now in his 60s who is from the US and went to med school in Sweden when he was in his mid 20s after having studied Swedish for a few years (while living in the country).

I also know someone from China who took a slightly different route. She did her BA in the US coming in with probably a high B2 and managed to get into med school in the US, despite doing her undergrad at a school that is really not known for preparing you for med school. It's a great school and her English improved immensely in part because of it, but it's a liberal arts school that has next to no focus on hard sciences.

The american system is extremely different from the european ones, and the european ones vary a lot. The issue here is not the language level, that is the least founded fear of the OP. Or the language exams and retaking them. Not at all. The issue are the universities' rules and conditions. Plus, let's not forget the evolution of the bureaucracy, when thinking about examples of other people. While life in general was much harder forty years ago, I have no doubts about that, many things used to be simpler. Or at least complicated in a different way. The differences are so huge that the experience of the previous generations is absolutely worthless as an information source.

Also, the US system is different in the organisation of studies. Basically, the highschools are much easier and less rigorous than the european ones tend to be, also shorter than those in many countries. The first degree makes up for that and improves that base a lot. Then the medschool can be just a second degree and take four years. It is a hellish system in many ways, sure, but it is more penetrable than the systems based just on one set of results you can no longer improve.

[aokoye]

The american system is extremely different from the european ones, and the european ones vary a lot. The issue here is not the language level, that is the least founded fear of the OP. Or the language exams and retaking them. Not at all. The issue are the universities' rules and conditions. Plus, let's not forget the evolution of the bureaucracy, when thinking about examples of other people. While life in general was much harder forty years ago, I have no doubts about that, many things used to be simpler. Or at least complicated in a different way. The differences are so huge that the experience of the previous generations is absolutely worthless as an information source.

Also, the US system is different in the organisation of studies. Basically, the highschools are much easier and less rigorous than the european ones tend to be, also shorter than those in many countries. The first degree makes up for that and improves that base a lot. Then the medschool can be just a second degree and take four years. It is a hellish system in many ways, sure, but it is more penetrable than the systems based just on one set of results you can no longer improve.

I am well aware of the fact that there are vast differences between med schools and qualifications required to practice medicine in different countries and regions. If anything I suspect that the differences between US and Sweden 40 years ago were still bigger than those of Germany and Norway now for various reasons. Never mind things like the exchange of information, which would have been exponentially harder then than it is now. Note that I know multiple who people who have practiced/still practice medicine (both human and veterinary) and psychotherapy in countries that are different than the one that they got their terminal degree in. Also, no where did the OP concretely say where they wanted to practice medicine.

More broadly I'm also well aware of the differences between the primary and secondary education systems in the US, good chunks of Europe, and Canada. Remember, I am in fact planing on applying to grad schools in Western Europe (more specifically the Netherlands) in the Fall. This is something I've researched quite a lot. I can assure you that the hoops that I will have to go to are far greater on the whole than if I were to have gotten my degree in the EU/EEA. Though it'd be even worse had I gotten any degree/high school diploma in China.

More over the differences in post secondary education more broadly, at all levels, differs quite a lot. Not only by region but by country. While my BA degree would most definitely get me into a MA program in the Netherlands and into a research masters as well (provided my personal statement is compelling enough), having a Dutch MA that isn't a research masters would make getting into a doctoral program in the US far harder than it would in the Netherlands. Note that, from my understanding, it's already hard to get a doctoral position with a 1 year masters degree in the Netherlands - it would near impossible to get a doctoral position in the US with the same degree. In the US we don't really have the equivalent of a Dutch non-research masters. The exception to this difficulty would be if one were to apply to a program in the US that accepts students directly from undergrad. That, of course, flat out isn't a thing in Germany and I suspect also isn't a thing in the Netherlands - it's not particularly common in the US, though I suspect that is dependent on the discipline.

All that said I'm not sure why you mentioned the differences in secondary education between the US and Europe because it isn't applicable to the OP in the slightest.

[tiia]

Let's face it, getting into medicine in Germany is extremely difficult. In December 2017 the Federal Constitutional Court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) said, that the existing way the study places in medicine are given to the applicants needs to be improved soon as it's violating the German constitution. Now 20% of the places are given according to the high school grades (countrywide centralised; applicants name their prefered 6 universities), 20% due to waiting time (waiting time means doing anything apart from studying at a university/university of applied sciences) and 60% according to the universities' own criteria. That doesn't sound too bad? Well, first, most universities use as their own criteria mainly the high school grades. Second, we have around 5 times more applicants than study places. The number of study places is still at the level of the early 90's. This leads to lots of the problems with too few doctors nowadays. Third, the waiting time can be right now something like 10-14 semesters, so 5-7 years. It's one of the points that has been criticised by the Federal Constitutional Court. A possible solution might be to limit the maximum waiting time to e.g. 4 years.
Many Germans, who don't get a study place go to Austria, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia or Hungary to earn a degree in medicine or make the equivalent of the "Physikum", just to return back to Germany. It seems to be easier to continue the studies in Germany once you already got the Physikum (or equivalent) somewhere else.
Austria has now a quota of 75% of students from Austria, 20% from other European countries* and 5% from elsewhere for medicine. It seems the main reason for this is that too many Germans, who did not get a study place in Germany, try to go to Austria instead.
*I think Norway counts as European country, although not being part of the EU.

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@Jthi97: I don't think you would be too old. When I read the thread title I had thought of someone being at least 30 or 40 years old. I'm 29 and thinking about moving abroad. I don't know yet for sure, but at least I'm going again for the summer and see what happens then. As you can see from the criteria with the waiting time for medicine studies, I don't even think it would be extremely late for starting medicine studies.
Someone raised the concern, that you might fall out of the studying habit during those 5 years and I think that's something to take serious. In my opinion some profession more related to medicine would make more sense than enlisting to the army.
Otherwise, I've been recently to a hospital. Out of six different doctors I talked to at least two of them had an accent that sounded non-native to me. The nurses, however, sounded all native-like to me. So don't worry if your accent might not be perfect, you'll be doing great work anyway.

Would it be possible to start he studies in Norway and come to Germany after your studies? You could go on exchange during the studies, so that you end up in Germany even sooner.

[Cavesa]

I am well aware of the fact that there are vast differences between med schools and qualifications required to practice medicine in different countries and regions. If anything I suspect that the differences between US and Sweden 40 years ago were still bigger than those of Germany and Norway now for various reasons. Never mind things like the exchange of information, which would have been exponentially harder then than it is now. Note that I know multiple who people who have practiced/still practice medicine (both human and veterinary) and psychotherapy in countries that are different than the one that they got their terminal degree in. Also, no where did the OP concretely say where they wanted to practice medicine.

More broadly I'm also well aware of the differences between the primary and secondary education systems in the US, good chunks of Europe, and Canada. Remember, I am in fact planing on applying to grad schools in Western Europe (more specifically the Netherlands) in the Fall. This is something I've researched quite a lot. I can assure you that the hoops that I will have to go to are far greater on the whole than if I were to have gotten my degree in the EU/EEA. Though it'd be even worse had I gotten any degree/high school diploma in China.

More over the differences in post secondary education more broadly, at all levels, differs quite a lot. Not only by region but by country. While my BA degree would most definitely get me into a MA program in the Netherlands and into a research masters as well (provided my personal statement is compelling enough), having a Dutch MA that isn't a research masters would make getting into a doctoral program in the US far harder than it would in the Netherlands. Note that, from my understanding, it's already hard to get a doctoral position with a 1 year masters degree in the Netherlands - it would near impossible to get a doctoral position in the US with the same degree. In the US we don't really have the equivalent of a Dutch non-research masters. The exception to this difficulty would be if one were to apply to a program in the US that accepts students directly from undergrad. That, of course, flat out isn't a thing in Germany and I suspect also isn't a thing in the Netherlands - it's not particularly common in the US, though I suspect that is dependent on the discipline.

All that said I'm not sure why you mentioned the differences in secondary education between the US and Europe because it isn't applicable to the OP in the slightest.

I apologise, if I didn't sound respectful enough.

I highly respect your knowledge of the various higher education systems in general. But medicine IS different. Of course there have been some harmonisation mechanisms within the EU. But medicine doesn't fit too well into the new model (stuff like credits etc. medicine is simply too rigid) and every country that I know of is finding a way to keep their medicine faculties apart from many changes.

I was mentioning the secondary education comparing because one of your examples was a european having moved to the US, wasn't it? The american system allows more flexibility. The european ones, such as the German one, are much worse in this aspect. It is just a different mentality and the US examples do not apply that much, which is what I was trying to illustrate. Germany is one of the countries with very demanding high schools, then just one way to get into medschool, end then you are stuck for six years. Medicine studies are not doctoral studies, they are not MA. And when the only way to get in are the highschool grades (that is not just Germany, Spain does it too and surely others),probably also with some requirements concerning the nostrification of foreign highschools, it is a problem for the individuals. And a waste of human resources for the country in need of more doctors.

I definitely believe you have to jump through many more hoops as a student of a non-medical degree coming from outside the EU. But when it comes to medicine, it is very complicated to switch countries even within the EU. Never forget that medicine is a world outside of the norm. I know it sounds horrible and I remember not beliving this years ago, considering this to just be nonsense said by doctors lacking humility. It is unfortunately the truth.

Let's face it, getting into medicine in Germany is extremely difficult. In December 2017 the Federal Constitutional Court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) said, that the existing way the study places in medicine are given to the applicants needs to be improved soon as it's violating the German constitution. Now 20% of the places are given according to the high school grades (countrywide centralised; applicants name their prefered 6 universities), 20% due to waiting time (waiting time means doing anything apart from studying at a university/university of applied sciences) and 60% according to the universities' own criteria. That doesn't sound too bad? Well, first, most universities use as their own criteria mainly the high school grades. Second, we have around 5 times more applicants than study places. The number of study places is still at the level of the early 90's. This leads to lots of the problems with too few doctors nowadays. Third, the waiting time can be right now something like 10-14 semesters, so 5-7 years. It's one of the points that has been criticised by the Federal Constitutional Court. A possible solution might be to limit the maximum waiting time to e.g. 4 years.
Many Germans, who don't get a study place go to Austria, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia or Hungary to earn a degree in medicine or make the equivalent of the "Physikum", just to return back to Germany. It seems to be easier to continue the studies in Germany once you already got the Physikum (or equivalent) somewhere else.
Austria has now a quota of 75% of students from Austria, 20% from other European countries* and 5% from elsewhere for medicine. It seems the main reason for this is that too many Germans, who did not get a study place in Germany, try to go to Austria instead.
*I think Norway counts as European country, although not being part of the EU.

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@Jthi97: I don't think you would be too old. When I read the thread title I had thought of someone being at least 30 or 40 years old. I'm 29 and thinking about moving abroad. I don't know yet for sure, but at least I'm going again for the summer and see what happens then. As you can see from the criteria with the waiting time for medicine studies, I don't even think it would be extremely late for starting medicine studies.
Someone raised the concern, that you might fall out of the studying habit during those 5 years and I think that's something to take serious. In my opinion some profession more related to medicine would make more sense than enlisting to the army.
Otherwise, I've been recently to a hospital. Out of six different doctors I talked to at least two of them had an accent that sounded non-native to me. The nurses, however, sounded all native-like to me. So don't worry if your accent might not be perfect, you'll be doing great work anyway.

Would it be possible to start he studies in Norway and come to Germany after your studies? You could go on exchange during the studies, so that you end up in Germany even sooner.

Thank you for clarification tiia, it is great to hear from a local. I was told the same thing just will fewer details.

Medicine is not a normal degree. The universities love to make an even bigger deal of it than it needs to be.

I've heard of people that have waited for six or seven years, a friend had such classmates during her Erasmus in Germany. I honestly can't see how this can be worth it. Basically, you have to start building a career elsewhere and drop it. It is highly impractical to use those years to found a family. Your learning ability doesn't improve during those years, the peak of the cognitive abilities is estimated somewhere between 22 and 25 years of age, then the slow decline starts. I am not saying older students can't do great (I know such people!), but majority of people would struggle a lot.

This is really a weird strategy for a country in need of more doctors. Well, they have chosen to import the doctors, it might even be cheaper. It sucks for the germans passionate about medicine, I don't doubt the filters don't let in many people who would make great students and doctors and just happened to struggle during the highschool for various reasons. But it is a great opportunity for everyone else, including the norwegians. And including people from outside the EU+Norway circle.

The austrian quota is very interesting. It is against the spirit of all the europeans having the opportunities of the local's everywhere but obviously noone has found it a problem worth solving by the EU. But no wonder they are defending their resources, as the germans would have little reason to stay after the graduation, since Germany is one of the best countries for doctors. But if the entrance conditions are more doable for the OP, it might be an awesome opportunity and they could fit among those lucky 20%. Were I in their situation, I would definitely try.

About the amount of foreign doctors and nurses and other medical stuff in Germany: it varies greatly by region. It is quite a common topic in the czech media and some of the doctors who've left share their experience through various channels. There are hospitals with mostly native employees, and there are others that couldn't function without foreigners, and there is everything in between. It works, because the germans are wise enough to both support the foreigners in their efforts to improve their German and to enforce the language. You wouldn't be weird at all.

And the german healthcare is very accepting towards people with degrees from many countries.

[tiia]

The austrian quota is very interesting. It is against the spirit of all the europeans having the opportunities of the local's everywhere but obviously noone has found it a problem worth solving by the EU. But no wonder they are defending their resources, as the germans would have little reason to stay after the graduation, since Germany is one of the best countries for doctors. But if the entrance conditions are more doable for the OP, it might be an awesome opportunity and they could fit among those lucky 20%. Were I in their situation, I would definitely try.

I found that also quite interesting, when I read it. Actually, the EU had to prove the quota, but accepted it as it seemed to fulfill the condition of "protecting a country from an otherwise arising emergency situation" or however that was called. If I remember correctly the decision by the EU is from 1015 or 2016. Even more interesting is that until 2005 German students were only accepted in Austria if they had already gotten a study place for medicine in Germany. When this condition was no longer required, the amount of German students increased significantly.

I remember two nurses from a city far away (400-500km?) from where I live, who came here to try to get into medicine in my university. They said, that it was one of the few universities that actually had had interested, what they had been doing before. Honestly I think trying to become a nurse is not the worst way to spend your time until starting with medicine studies. (Note that nurses don't study at a university in Germany. So this would even count as waiting time.)

In my opinion the German way today is just ridiculous. Increasing the amount of study places might solve problems Germany is facing today and will be facing in the future the same way if nothing changes.